Interline Hostility: A Symptom of Stupidity.

[JK7177]

Just a small observation. It seems most of you are angry because you feel people are taking jobs that don't pay them their worth and degrade the rest of the industry, but from my point of view if you believed this you should also believe that everyone that took pay cuts pre and post 9/11 is also a burden on the industry for allowing their wages to go down causing just as much a problem as any mesa pilot. Just an observation.

 

[RightSeatGirl]

There have been endless examples of bad moves among pilot groups and management groups and they will continue to happen for a long time to come. But anger does not result in effective communication. Anger shuts down the process of communication entirely. It so completely disables objectivity that otherwise intelligent, and educated people come off sounding like a two year old crying over mama not buying him/her the toy at the supermarket.

 

[Velocipede]

Ill tell you what hurts our profession. Its the fact that some senior mainline guys threw scope away to get a few more bucks and a couple extra days off.

While you are absolutely correct, that's water under the bridge. We can't go back and unScope the Regionals. Would that we could.

All we can do now is try to maintain or improve what we have. And we can't do that when there are PILOTS who are strictly out for #1.

You know who THEY are.

Its sickening that the almighty ALPA didn't have some sort of scope clause set up at Midwest.

Once again a lack of understanding what ALPA is. Its an Association of MECs. And National has very little to say about what an individual MEC agrees to. If Midwest had a strong scope clause, this wouldn't be happening to them. They don't. It did.

And RAH pilots are the chief beneficiaries.

You don't think it pisses me off as you sit fat and dumb making a couple hundred an hour and have the nerve to yell at us for taking these jobs when guys like you are the ones who threw their scope away and allowed these jobs to be created.

Well, I don't make $200 an hour. Nobody does that flies pax except SWA.

And you're primary target was MECs from the dim past.

So let's concentrate on today, right now. And right this moment RAH pilots are flying Midwest routes while 75% of the Midwest guys are on the street.

If there was a strike going on, what would that be called?

 

[ladder360]

Pilots have always hated pilots from other airlines. Take a look at Braniff and American back in the day. That is not going to stop.

We need more volunteerism from young pilots within ALPA. We need ALPA doing a much better job educating those in flight school, aviation related universities, etc. why one should work for ALPA airlines.

Funny you brought this up Seggy - I was going to ask about what programs, if any, does ALPA currently have where they are making an effort to educate folks wanting to make flying a career. Kind of a grassroots thing, if you will. I think it would benefit them dramatically!

I wouldn't know about a lot of these aspects of the politics of the profession if it weren't for JC. Reading these perspectives has given me a lot of knowledge for future decisions with my career path. Not having it I may have been inclined to take a Mesa, GoJets or even a "non-paid internship f/o" type of job just to get time and experience. Not knowing any better about the effects that has on the profession.

 

[rjmore]

Just a small observation. It seems most of you are angry because you feel people are taking jobs that don't pay them their worth and degrade the rest of the industry, but from my point of view if you believed this you should also believe that everyone that took pay cuts pre and post 9/11 is also a burden on the industry for allowing their wages to go down causing just as much a problem as any mesa pilot. Just an observation.

To expand on that line of thinking.....

Every time a contract is signed that throws first year pilots under the bus is along the same line. People rail against other airlines but then sign a contract that pays first year pilots less than a McDonald's shift manager. If one can't fix their own airline, how can they fix others? For the record I think both are wrong, the sub standard airline and the sub standard contract. You just hear "I can do it for a year because it's a legacy!". I call that one SLJS (shiny legacy jet syndrome). Pilots will always find a way to hate what they disagree with and rationalize what they agree with, even if it is really the same principle.

 

[BajtheJino]

I'm not a republican, the notion of such a thing as political party affiliation is quite frankly not for me to the point where I won't even capitalize the word republican.. It sounds to me like you just need to have justification of pointless anger. If you want to be a child and respond to every sentence I wrote then fine Velo. Good for you...you have validated your anger...you can insult me and blame blame blame all you want to...what I want to know is, what do you get out of it? Does it make you feel better? Are you better off? Is the anger going away? Are conditions at your company improving? Is the industry getting better because Velo is pissed? You can lie to us man...but you can't lie to yourself. But I guess if you need all that anger to keep you warm at night then fine, blame me. It's my fault your company has problems and the industry is going down the drain. I admit it...its all me...there do you feel better now? Has that restored your emotional balance? Get a grip man! The golden days of the airline industry are GONE! The most absurd aspect of your entire position is that you are too obtuse to realize that this new generation of airline pilots have come into an industry that YOUR generation allowed to become so F'd up in the first place....So maybe you really need to blame yourself. Because I just find it hard to swallow that a group of pilots that you have so much contempt for, who on average have been in the biz for a whopping 1 to 2 years are responsible for the state of an industry that has been sliding downhill for the last twenty....

Ill tell you what hurts our profession. Its the fact that some senior mainline guys threw scope away to get a few more bucks and a couple extra days off. If it weren't for that very reason none of this would be an issue. Its sickening that the almighty ALPA didn't have some sort of scope clause set up at Midwest. You don't think it pisses me off as you sit fat and dumb making a couple hundred an hour and have the nerve to yell at us for taking these jobs when guys like you are the ones who threw their scope away and allowed these jobs to be created.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:

Well said, both of you.

 

[skydog]

It only gets us nowhere because the sad reality is that most people in the industry are out for only themselves. I can count on one hand the number of pilot groups that, in recent years have made a decision for the greater good of the industry. One of them is probably going to go away because of it, and another one has over 100 guys on the street or in the wrong seat because of the decision they made. And yet in BOTH those cases, the other pilot group that DIRECTLY caused these issues either is still or was until recently hiring and growing.

Tough pill to swallow.

That's exactly right. They are only out for themselves. And that's the way it should be. And that's what this country was based on. You do the best you can for yourself and your family. It's all you can expect of any man. Do you really think that someone else should lose their home, or allow their family to go hungry, so that YOU can maintain your fat lifestyle? If someone is going to lose their job, I'd rather it be someone else.

 

[skydog]

RSG, it is up to us as young aviators to stop the downward slide of the industry.

Mistakes have been made, no doubt about it. Are we suppose to accept those mistakes though? ..or.. Shouldn't we get involved and try to fix them?

That's right, it is. Althought I suspect you meant "the profession," the two are inextricably linked. You want to improve the profession? Then do what you can to restore industry profitability. It's the only way your prospects will improve.

 

[scramjet]

(sigh) Threads like this are why I consider flying overseas or corporate or anything besides US airlines. I know, I'll say it for you: "Good! That's one less pilot on the market!"

I grew up in an airline family, and it seems like hostility towards various groups is part of the game. My parents weren't like that, but I would notice among other employees not just hostility between the employees of "inferior airlines" and the like, but hostility between labor groups in the same airline, and even hostility between different stations and bases. It was and is nuts. And that was even before all the extreme bitterness after 9/11.

 

[skydog]

Pilots have always hated pilots from other airlines. Take a look at Braniff and American back in the day. That is not going to stop.

It's always been that way, so it should stay that way? What kind of logic is that? It stops when you (and I) decide that it does. But there are people out there for whom it is more important to be angry than work to solve the problem. That's RSG's point.

 

[skydog]

While you are absolutely correct, that's water under the bridge. We can't go back and unScope the Regionals. Would that we could.

So you legacy guys screw the pooch, but "we cant do anything" so let's move on. But woe betied any young regional guy who makes a mistake. Hang the SOB, right?

If anyone is in a position to make a change in the profession, it is the established pilot groups at the majors and legacies. But your solution is that all the little guys should do something so that you can sit back and enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

 

[deadstick]

If one can't fix their own airline, how can they fix others? For the record I think both are wrong, the sub standard airline and the sub standard contract. You just hear "I can do it for a year because it's a legacy!". I call that one SLJS (shiny legacy jet syndrome). Pilots will always find a way to hate what they disagree with and rationalize what they agree with, even if it is really the same principle.

Have to disagree with the play on SJS. The SJS tag is hung on low-time pilots who don't have a CFI or are "burned out" after 100 hrs dual given. The regional CA who takes a step back in pay and seniority has earned the opportunity to fly for that legacy. The 1000 TPIC (some 121) requirement means a pilot must fly for the military or a regional before moving up. That opportunity has been earned, not paid for as is the case of the 250 hr comemrical pilot.

On another point, ALPA has many great resourses, but 1) it gets it's operating budget from dues based on the salaries of the membership, and 2) it is not a true union. First of all, deep down, I have to believe some MEC's are favored over others. If a pilot group leaves because it is not satisfied with the representation, that can severely impact the budget. We saw this with the attemted change to the dues structure following US Airway's departure. Second, it's not a true union in that there is not one list, one contract, one standard. It's a collection of separate MECs. These smaller groups have their own "pet projects" when it comes to negotiations. Until there is a fundamental change at the national level as to how this labor group is organized and how the contracts are written, there will be no single standard.

 

[surreal1221]

But, hey, let's all give them a FREE ride to work and back because they've got a pilot's license. Nevermind their knife in your back or management's knife at your throat.

I know Velo, and every day I spend as a 121 FO I'm developing my own mentality on how best to utilize and protect the profession, that includes being restrictive when providing free lifts for people who are undercutting the profession.

Don't you worry.

 

[ppragman]

As far as I'm concerned, the real problem is that we have too many people who want to fly for an airline, and refuse to do any other kind of flying, "but I don't want to fly 135 freight! wahh wahh." Look, jobs that pay well, have you home every night, and give you good benes are out there, in fact, there everywhere. But don't ya know, a guy doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground if he's not a jet jockey. And his career is inferior if he's not carting pax or freight around in a 20 ton metal tube. There is another way. People have got to realize that the alternative to the airline world in a lot of cases is WAAAAAYYYYY better. In a way, even CFIing is better than the airline world. You pretty much get to set your own schedule, the work is fulfilling, and you're home everynight. The people you meet are usually interested in the fact that their in an airplane, and not tired from just going through TSA.

Look, I'm a victim of SJS too, I like practically everyone else in the career is infatuated with driving big heavy metal. But the secret truth of the matter is, after about 2 to 3 years of flying a "big jet" the reality will sink in "its boring." Then, in order to find fulfillment in your job you'll get involved in unions, or stop allowing people to jumpseat or something of the like.

 

[skydog]

As far as I'm concerned, the real problem is that we have too many people who want to fly

Stop right there. That's as far as you need to go. The essential problem is that there are more people who want to fly than there are jobs. As long as that dynamic exists, there will always be downward pressure on wages.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

I have soiled myself.

How embarrassing.

 

[SteveC]

I have soiled myself.

How embarrassing.

AGAIN?!?!?!

 

[adreamer]

Pampers, Lloyd,

 

[Velocipede]

If anyone is in a position to make a change in the profession, it is the established pilot groups at the majors and legacies. But your solution is that all the little guys should do something so that you can sit back and enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong? Perhaps if you read threads with a somewhat open mind, you could figure this stuff out.

Its not about big guys or little guys. Its about pilots. Pilots who take willingly take jobs that undercut other pilots. It may be at Mesa or it may be at Virgin. Doesn't matter. If you KNOW you're undercutting the industry, why are you doing it?

To get a type rating? To get a left seat?

This whole thing started because RSG and the other RAH pilots KNOW they're wrong taking Midwest's routes and putting their pilots on the street. But, hey. RAH furloughees are getting back to work. Flying Midwest flying.

Nice. All for one and that one is me.

 

[killbilly]

We need more volunteerism from young pilots within ALPA. We need ALPA doing a much better job educating those in flight school, aviation related universities, etc. why one should work for ALPA airlines.

Finally someone gives me the segue for comment/question I wanted to ask...

While I doubt ALPA has the fiscal resources to start an "early career pilot mentoring program" (maybe it does) it would seem that the spirit of volunteerism coupled with tacit endorsements in their name would go a long way.

For example, on some of their off-days, ALPA-carrier pilots could volunteer to give talks, lectures, etc (and hand out copies of Flying The Line) at some of the more career-oriented places...like FSA, DCA, ATP, Falcon, etc - and be damn prepared to answer the questions that will arise, like, why do I need union representation? Done properly, without histrionics and fear-mongering, this creates a positive bond. I could see guys like Velo, Calcapt, Staplegun, and even Doug - guys who have "made-it" and gained some street cred, having a powerful influence on future pilots.

It would seem that some early information and career conditioning could go a long way. To whit: had I not found JC, I'd have mortgaged my life to SLM for 20 years, gone to ATP, and likely taken the first right-seat offered to me out of instructing, which, at the time, would probably have me on the street about now. Thank Buddha I didn't do that.

The only thing I knew about ALPA back then was my perception that pilots used to strike a lot and inconvenienced the public, and generally seemed to be overpaid whiners. Yes, I'm oversimplifying this, but it's tantamount to what I used to think, because I didn't know any better, and neither does 99% of the pax public. I've learned. So may they.

We talked once before on another thread about how ALPA needed to educate the public as well as the pilots because public support can go a long way toward achieving the agenda. The above early-influence idea is one of several possible examples of how ALPA could overhaul its public image and interest in participation.