Interline Hostility: A Symptom of Stupidity.

This whole thing started because RSG and the other RAH pilots KNOW they're wrong taking Midwest's routes and putting their pilots on the street. But, hey. RAH furloughees are getting back to work. Flying Midwest flying.

Velo, she doesn't fly for Republic. In fact, her pilot group is quasi getting screwed over by another group right now, but that's neither here nor there.

You've avoided this question several times now and I really won't be too surprised if you do it again, but what do YOU think the RAH guys should do? Fine, I understand that IF they start hiring to staff this little adventure in MKE, then yeah, the new hires are taking the job KNOWING that they are ####### over another pilot group. But that hasn't happened yet. So what exactly are the line pilots who are awarded this flying supposed to do? Refuse to fly it? On what grounds? You know as well as I do that a wildcat strike in this labor environment would be incredibly costly to trade unionism everywhere. So, before you get up on your soapbox (again) how about you say what you think they should be doing.
 
This whole thing started because RSG and the other RAH pilots KNOW they're wrong taking Midwest's routes and putting their pilots on the street. But, hey. RAH furloughees are getting back to work. Flying Midwest flying.

Nice. All for one and that one is me.

Where on Earth did you come up with that little bit of rotten bologna Velo? Firstly...I don't work for RAH and if you weren't so busy tending the fire of your anger you would have remembered that. Secondly, I did not start this thread over your little war with RAH either...I started the topic to address anger Velo...and the futility of it no matter what the source. This industry is full of old angry guys that lost this and lost that...so now you are mad....Sure you have justifacation to be upset....but what is all that pissed offness getting you huh? You won't answer that question will you. All you can do is talk about how you have a right to be mad...Okay we get it, and I doubt anyone here can say you are not justified...I'm only saying why carry the hate? Nope...you just want to be mad don't you..you don't want to talk, you don't want to reason, you don't want to do anything that would require you to no longer be mad.

Sad....very very sad. If no one is willing to compromise and deprioritze their personal needs for the larger group...then what the heck makes you any different from those you are pissed at?
 
So let's concentrate on today, right now. And right this moment RAH pilots are flying Midwest routes while 75% of the Midwest guys are on the street.

If there was a strike going on, what would that be called?

But there is no strike.

Either way, the RAH pilots had no control over this. If you want to cry about this go yell about the MEC over at RAH, but not the pilots on the line that you are basically saying should quit their job.

Maybe instead you should start petitioning for RAH to join ALPA because of this happening. Blaming an entire pilot group for this Midwest thing is way overboard for anyone.

Yell at the managment teams and the MECs as much as you want, but neither pilot group had any control over what happened and can't recieve the blame.

Velo, you have nothing to base your anger on with the RAH pilot group.
 
Killbilly,

It is a great idea. ALPA has been looking into it, but it is going to take years to implement something that would be able to stick. I know ALPA staffers read jetcareers, one even made a comment to me on how they feel sorry for amorris after the jokes I have been pulling on him.

They are starting to work on some programs, but they need volunteers who would work and develop them.
 
While you are absolutely correct, that's water under the bridge. We can't go back and unScope the Regionals. Would that we could.

All we can do now is try to maintain or improve what we have. And we can't do that when there are PILOTS who are strictly out for #1.

You know who THEY are.



Once again a lack of understanding what ALPA is. Its an Association of MECs. And National has very little to say about what an individual MEC agrees to. If Midwest had a strong scope clause, this wouldn't be happening to them. They don't. It did.

And RAH pilots are the chief beneficiaries.



Well, I don't make $200 an hour. Nobody does that flies pax except SWA.

And you're primary target was MECs from the dim past.

So let's concentrate on today, right now. And right this moment RAH pilots are flying Midwest routes while 75% of the Midwest guys are on the street.

If there was a strike going on, what would that be called?

Well let me first describe "scab" how I see it. A Scab is a pilot who flies in place of another pilot that is on strike.

So if there were theoretically a strike then yes you could consider the RAH guys scabs. However there isn't a strike and if there were I know that we (being under the same contact as RAH) have language in our contract that would allow us to sit at home and not fly those routes.

We can't legally do anything until Midwest's MEC can pull together a strike and all I want for Christmas is for that to happen. So what do you suppose we do until that happens?

And no Im not gonna quit my job.
 
All I'm trying to say is that the anger is pointless guys. You cannot control others and how they think. You cannot make them "see the light" and choose a better carrier. So the anger is an exercise in futility justified or not. The problems you guys mention are not going away...ever. It would take a mass leap in social evolution to foster the kind of mentality that would prevent people from taking jobs at carriers like Mesa. It is just fantasy land to think such a thing is possible. And being pissed about it is useless.

And for the record I don't work for Mesa and would never work for Mesa. I was generalizing dude as I personally do have enough self-worth to have made a decision to work for a carrier with the second highest 1st year F/O pay in the regionals. But I ain't gonna waste mental energy being mad at Joe Pilot for going to work for Mesa...It's just not worth it.

Well....actually, yes you can. I would have been one of those Mesa hires if I didn't know about this site. They had a mass recruiting at my college and I was offered a job. Thanks to the insight of the fine professionals on this board, I chose not to go. Am I regretting it? Maybe just a little because I don't have a flight job at this point. BUT, in the long run, I know it will prove to be the better decision. My QOL with a good job down the road means more to me than flying a jet for McDonalds pay. Screw the jet for that pay. It's too much work and training to get paid so little.
 
I know Velo, and every day I spend as a 121 FO I'm developing my own mentality on how best to utilize and protect the profession, that includes being restrictive when providing free lifts for people who are undercutting the profession.

Don't you worry. ;)

I agree with most you say Surreal but you fly for just as big a regional as any of us and somehow you always make yourself sound like you are different than any other regional pilot.
 
Well....actually, yes you can. I would have been one of those Mesa hires if I didn't know about this site. They had a mass recruiting at my college and I was offered a job. Thanks to the insight of the fine professionals on this board, I chose not to go. Am I regretting it? Maybe just a little because I don't have a flight job at this point. BUT, in the long run, I know it will prove to be the better decision. My QOL with a good job down the road means more to me than flying a jet for McDonalds pay. Screw the jet for that pay. It's too much work and training to get paid so little.

Good for you man. I applaud you for your decision.

However there are plenty of fine professionals that for whatever reason decided to goto Mesa that deserve our respect and didn't harm anyone of us in the process. Don't get too caught up in the "Im better than you because you work there BS."
 
Good for you man. I applaud you for your decision.

However there are plenty of fine professionals that for whatever reason decided to goto Mesa that deserve our respect and didn't harm anyone of us in the process. Don't get too caught up in the "Im better than you because you work there BS."

Let me clarify, I AM NOT hostile towards any pilot group. I understand the motivations to go to places like Mesa. On the flip side, I understand the motivations to NOT go. Am I mad at others for choosing that path, not really. The airlines are not now nor will they ever be the same as they were pre-9/11. People make their decisions on what's best for them. We're not here long enough to go around being pissed at everyone.
 
I know I'm the rookie who has no clue what he's talking about, but to be honest, I just want to fly and get paid. A lot of people do. Some people just love flying that much. Is it right, as a company, to take advantage of that and pay people dirt wages? I don't think so. Is it right to fault those who just really want to fly for taking lower wages because they just want to fly? It's arguable. Will it do anyone any good? Not unless we all come together and work to fix it. That won't happen if the various pilots are pointing fingers and being divisive.


As far as I'm concerned, the real problem is that we have too many people who want to fly for an airline, and refuse to do any other kind of flying, "but I don't want to fly 135 freight! wahh wahh." Look, jobs that pay well, have you home every night, and give you good benes are out there, in fact, there everywhere. But don't ya know, a guy doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground if he's not a jet jockey. And his career is inferior if he's not carting pax or freight around in a 20 ton metal tube. There is another way. People have got to realize that the alternative to the airline world in a lot of cases is WAAAAAYYYYY better. In a way, even CFIing is better than the airline world. You pretty much get to set your own schedule, the work is fulfilling, and you're home everynight. The people you meet are usually interested in the fact that their in an airplane, and not tired from just going through TSA.

Look, I'm a victim of SJS too, I like practically everyone else in the career is infatuated with driving big heavy metal. But the secret truth of the matter is, after about 2 to 3 years of flying a "big jet" the reality will sink in "its boring." Then, in order to find fulfillment in your job you'll get involved in unions, or stop allowing people to jumpseat or something of the like.

I'll take it. As long as I'm not instructing or crop dusting for the rest of my life, I'm all for it.
 
Let me clarify, I AM NOT hostile towards any pilot group. I understand the motivations to go to places like Mesa. On the flip side, I understand the motivations to NOT go. Am I mad at others for choosing that path, not really. The airlines are not now nor will they ever be the same as they were pre-9/11. People make their decisions on what's best for them. We're not here long enough to go around being pissed at everyone.

Well said and more people in the 121 Pax flying world should think like this.
 
Well, to quote one of my former classmates, "I would do whatever I need to do to advance my career, even I have to cross picket line to feed my family."

You can guess where my classmates are. :p

RSG, if someone fly your route with 2/3 of your current pay and you lose your flying job because of it, would you be angry or emotionally disturbed? :p;)
 
You've avoided this question several times now and I really won't be too surprised if you do it again, but what do YOU think the RAH guys should do?

No I didn't. The IBT should, as a Union, refuse to fly the flying. They won't because they know their rank and file wouldn't support the stand.

So what exactly are the line pilots who are awarded this flying supposed to do? Refuse to fly it? On what grounds? You know as well as I do that a wildcat strike in this labor environment would be incredibly costly to trade unionism everywhere. So, before you get up on your soapbox (again) how about you say what you think they should be doing.

See above.

I did not start this thread over your little war with RAH either...This industry is full of old angry guys that lost this and lost that...so now you are mad....Sure you have justifacation to be upset....but what is all that pissed offness getting you huh?

First, I'm not at war with anyone. I just call a spade a spade. And outsourcing is the latest challenge to all our jobs. At this point, RAH pilots don't see anything wrong with it...they're getting the work. Of course, you could ask the XJT furloughees how they feel tonight.

As long as its not your ox getting gored, I suppose that its all OK, isn't it RSG? Well, someday you're going to want to get out of your RJ and move up. Hopefully there will still be legacy jobs that don't pay RJ wages. Because, at that point you might as well stay at the regional, wherever it is you work.

I'm only saying why carry the hate?...you don't want to talk, you don't want to reason, you don't want to do anything that would require you to no longer be mad.

Who says I'm mad? And accusing someone of "hate" is the lamest attempt to redirect the debate. I'm just point out that the giant sucking sound of this profession is being driven by pilots who are only looking out for themselves. Thank God there are good guys out there like PCL and Seggy who put the whole group above their personal agendas.

If no one is willing to compromise and deprioritze their personal needs for the larger group...then what the heck makes you any different...

But, that's exactly the point, RSG. I do c/d. Every day. You want my Union credentials? Does 15 years of ALPA work count? That's why you wouldn't see me going to an outfit like VX if I was out of work.

Either way, the RAH pilots had no control over this. If you want to cry about this go yell about the MEC over at RAH, but not the pilots on the line that you are basically saying should quit their job.

Sure they do. They control (ideally) their MEC. If they don't get the MEC to reject the flying its because they WANT to do the flying irrespective of their protestations to the contrary.

Yell at the managment teams and the MECs as much as you want, but neither pilot group had any control over what happened and can't recieve the blame.

You really have no idea how MECs work, do you?

Well....actually, yes you can. I would have been one of those Mesa hires if I didn't know about this site. They had a mass recruiting at my college and I was offered a job. Thanks to the insight of the fine professionals on this board, I chose not to go. My QOL with a good job down the road means more to me than flying a jet for McDonalds pay. Screw the jet for that pay. It's too much work and training to get paid so little.

Sadly, you are in the minority among pilots. Just read the responses to this thread. The majority opinion seems to be "Its not the pilot's fault. Don't blame them." Well, without the pilots acquiescence this would never happen.

People make their decisions on what's best for them. We're not here long enough to go around being pissed at everyone.

Perhaps people should think a bit more long range. Because you keep cutting other guys throats, eventually someone is going to come along and cut yours.

I know I'm the rookie who has no clue what he's talking about, but to be honest, I just want to fly and get paid. Is it right to fault those who just really want to fly for taking lower wages because they just want to fly? It's arguable. Will it do anyone any good? Not unless we all come together and work to fix it. That won't happen if the various pilots are pointing fingers and being divisive.

When it won't happen is when people start accepting the behavior without protest. Its like the old story:

When they came for the Communists I didn't speak out. I'm not a Communist. When they came for the Homosexuals, I didn't speak out. I'm not a Homosexual. When they came for the Jews, I didn't speak out. I'm not a Jew. When they came for me there was no one left to speak out.
 
No I didn't. The IBT should, as a Union, refuse to fly the flying. They won't because they know their rank and file wouldn't support the stand.

I'm relatively new to the unionized labor game, but I don't see how that's possible. Am I missing something obvious?
 
Hmm...you think I have no oxen to gore Velo? May I remind you I'm a Piedmonster....And that once upon a time there was a saying...."Piedmont Airlines: The Cure for Hope!"

I like you have plenty to be upset over. At Piedmont, in the industry, for pilots at other carriers that have nil if any effect on Airways....But......getting mad at individual pilots to the point of denying jumpseats, taking up a whole runway, flying short final 20 knots slower then you need to is just plain childish nonsense that accomplishes only ONE thing...a perpetuation of anger...Again I ask you the question that you just won't answer....What does it get you?
 
.getting mad at individual pilots to the point of denying jumpseats, taking up a whole runway, flying short final 20 knots slower then you need to...Again I ask you the question that you just won't answer....What does it get you?

Well, I'll agree with you on the second two examples. Both are safety hazards.
 
venting, venting, RSG. You got to vent somewhere.

BTW, I refuse to commute on "those" airlines, even it means I would be late getting home. :) You got to take the stand somewhere. ;)
 
Have to disagree with the play on SJS. The SJS tag is hung on low-time pilots who don't have a CFI or are "burned out" after 100 hrs dual given. The regional CA who takes a step back in pay and seniority has earned the opportunity to fly for that legacy. The 1000 TPIC (some 121) requirement means a pilot must fly for the military or a regional before moving up. That opportunity has been earned, not paid for as is the case of the 250 hr comemrical pilot.

I still think it is very similar. The very same people I used to hear yelling about pay for training were the first ones to tell me they bought a type rating for SWA. To me you are either against the practice, for it, or indifferent to it. The same goes for pay issues. If you want to go to a company that pays sub standard wages in the first year then fine, but don't lecture others for doing the same thing. Just because it is a legacy carrier does not make it right. What's worse is the fact that the pilots of these companies voted for those contracts. They did so knowing it was screwing the new guys but they got a bit more for doing it. They did that for themselves and rationalized it by saying that it is just the way things are.
 
Don't you ever get tired of being wrong? Perhaps if you read threads with a somewhat open mind, you could figure this stuff out.

Its not about big guys or little guys. Its about pilots. Pilots who take willingly take jobs that undercut other pilots. It may be at Mesa or it may be at Virgin. Doesn't matter. If you KNOW you're undercutting the industry, why are you doing it?

To get a type rating? To get a left seat?

This whole thing started because RSG and the other RAH pilots KNOW they're wrong taking Midwest's routes and putting their pilots on the street. But, hey. RAH furloughees are getting back to work. Flying Midwest flying.

Nice. All for one and that one is me.

I notice you are still working for your employer, even though you are working for 25% less than you were a couple years ago. The day you walk off the job in protest of that is the day you can expect other pilots to forego employment in the name of "unity."
 
I am of the opinion that the leather jacket not only looks professional, but it also quite functional in the winter months. It is much more vesatile and more comfortable.
 
Back
Top