Interline Hostility: A Symptom of Stupidity.

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
What is it with so many pilots being so angry at other pilots just because they work for carrier "A"! Things going on like the recent Jet Blue Thread, a large pool of anger towards a certain two or three airlines within the ranks of my own carrier, Go Jet vs. TS, Mesa vs. everyone...I hate those guys, these guys are scabs..you all know what I mean....But man! WTF!!

Pilots have virtually zero control of management stupidity. Perhaps our respective unions have some small bit of influence but so little it's nearly pointless to give them that much credit. Being pissed at other pilots because their company took routes from yours is ludicrous even if it resulted in job loss. Why? Because being mad a Joe Pilot because his airline always takes up too much runway, or his airline stole routes from ours is about the same as being pissed off at a Shark for eating a seal. The truly asinine thing about all this interline hostility is that I don't see anyone lining up at management's door telling them..."No! We can't take those routes from Acme Air! They need them!"

Our respective companies are gonna do what they need to do to maximize their market share and profitability. And they are not EVER going to care about hurting company "B" to accomplish that. It's called a free market. So some of you guys really need to wake up and realize you are directing your anger in the wrong place. Don't be pissed at the Acme pilots because their management underbid your company and took some of your routes..Be pissed at your management for not managing effectively enough to offer the better product! Especially because one day...you just may need that Acme Air jumpseat.
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
What is it with so many pilots being so angry at other pilots just because they work for carrier "A"! Things going on like the recent Jet Blue Thread, a large pool of anger towards a certain two or three airlines within the ranks of my own carrier, Go Jet vs. TS, Mesa vs. everyone...I hate those guys, these guys are scabs..you all know what I mean....But man! WTF!!

Pilots have virtually zero control of management stupidity. Perhaps our respective unions have some small bit of influence but so little it's nearly pointless to give them that much credit. Being pissed at other pilots because their company took routes from yours is ludicrous even if it resulted in job loss. Why? Because being mad a Joe Pilot because his airline always takes up too much runway, or his airline stole routes from ours is about the same as being pissed off at a Shark for eating a seal. The truly asinine thing about all this interline hostility is that I don't see anyone lining up at management's door telling them..."No! We can't take those routes from Acme Air! They need them!"

Our respective companies are gonna do what they need to do to maximize their market share and profitability. And they are not EVER going to care about hurting company "B" to accomplish that. It's called a free market. So some of you guys really need to wake up and realize you are directing your anger in the wrong place. Don't be pissed at the Acme pilots because their management underbid your company and took some of your routes..Be pissed at your management for not managing effectively enough to offer the better product! Especially because one day...you just may need that Acme Air jumpseat.
Wow, a rational appeal to common sense! No way!
 

Velocipede

New Member
Sorry, RSG, but you haven't been around long enough to see the degradation in wages and benefits due to the actions of other pilots.

Every time someone straps on an Airbus for $95 an hour or flys a MKE turn that has been outsourced, it hurts every one of us in the profession.

Because every time this happens, management gets further proof that pilots are #####s who will do anything to get that upgrade or jet seat.

And you know what? They're right.

We're our own worst enemy.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Sorry, RSG, but you haven't been around long enough to see the degradation in wages and benefits due to the actions of other pilots.

Every time someone straps on an Airbus for $95 an hour or flys a MKE turn that has been outsourced, it hurts every one of us in the profession.

Because every time this happens, management gets further proof that pilots are #####s who will do anything to get that upgrade or jet seat.

And you know what? They're right.

We're our own worst enemy.
Dude, you proved my point for me. We are all going to do what we feel we have to to improve our quality of life, our wages and our individual job security. Your comparison is bunk Velo and deep down you know it. Because you know if the shoe was on the other foot, it would have been you flying the bus for $95 an hour. You can say you wouldn't all you want to. But the truth is that we are all out for ourselves in some way...You will never convince me of that otherwise. So your trying to tell me, tell us all that you would refuse upgrade if given the opportunity because it might have ramifications towards someone else's job security at some other airline? C'mon man...I have a great deal of respect for your longevity and experience and I also don't think you are that stupid. It seems you are allowing your frustrations to be misdirected...There will never be the kind of industry-wide interline cohesion that causes pilot "A" at company "C" to make decisions about his or her career based on how it will effect pilot "C" at company "A". It's ridiculous to blame pilots for failing to foster a kind of industry that is impossible in a free market.

Your are right! We are our own worst enemy, and as a whole we are no better then the managements we serve...Which is exactly my point..Why be mad at "those" guys because they did exactly what you would have done.....It makes no sense man....
 

WalterSobchak

Well-Known Member
For the companies that existed and had their wages and QOL slashed through sham bankruptcies I agree with your point.

However as Velo was saying every time a new company pops up with substandard wages and people flock there they are only lowering the bar. If people had self control not to go to the GoJet, SkyBus,& JetBlues of the world then they would have to pay respectable wages.

I've said it for a long time that I want to start a regional airline pay for all the pilots to live in an appartment complex, give them 3 meals a day, and transportation to the airport and pay them nothing else and I would still have a fat stack of resumes'.Pay for training is a perfect example. Self control is something the industry lacks because every one wants to fly the shiny jet and talk about it more than having a good job that takes care of you. Why would any one go to Mesa when you know how they treat you? I just can't understand it. Yet they still have a seniority list.

You wouldn't be mad if I started my regioanal airline fully staffed and you lost your job because people don't want to work for a paycheck?
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
:banghead:

People choose who they goto work for.

If someone decides to go and work for a company with an established history of ridiculous management tactics that undermine the profession, then why should the rest of us who are making an effort to hold the line regarding the standards for the 121 profession llet them get off scott free? Even AFTER we (collectively) make an effort to educate them on why their decision to work for their employer is a bad decision, and further degrades the quality of the profession?

No, I'm sorry. It's not that SIMPLE.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
For the companies that existed and had their wages and QOL slashed through sham bankruptcies I agree with your point.

However as Velo was saying every time a new company pops up with substandard wages and people flock there they are only lowering the bar. If people had self control not to go to the GoJet, SkyBus,& JetBlues of the world then they would have to pay respectable wages.

I've said it for a long time that I want to start a regional airline pay for all the pilots to live in an appartment complex, give them 3 meals a day, and transportation to the airport and pay them nothing else and I would still have a fat stack of resumes'.Pay for training is a perfect example. Self control is something the industry lacks because every one wants to fly the shiny jet and talk about it more than having a good job that takes care of you. Why would any one go to Mesa when you know how they treat you? I just can't understand it. Yet they still have a seniority list.

You wouldn't be mad if I started my regioanal airline fully staffed and you lost your job because people don't want to work for a paycheck?
That's just it..I'd be mad at you...not your pilots. People go to Mesa because they don't have all the facts. Very few new entries into our industry have any insight into what is a bad job compared to a good job. When your are fresh out of college you just want to start your career. Many may very well understand what a company like Mesa is all about and may not care because they want jet time to get them where they want to go eventually. We just cannot expect people to alter their career decision making process for the sake of our individual working conditions. I find it entertaining that this notion is even being entertained at all. We are a nation of individuals with individual goals. The kind of cohesion we would like to see could only be possible under a way of life more a kin to socialism then what we have here today. people just are not going to think that deeply about how a decision to go to work for a company like Mesa effects pilots industry wide..It has never been that way nor will it ever be that way.
 

WalterSobchak

Well-Known Member
That's just it..I'd be mad at you...not your pilots. People go to Mesa because they don't have all the facts. Very few new entries into our industry have any insight into what is a bad job compared to a good job. When your are fresh out of college you just want to start your career. Many may very well understand what a company like Mesa is all about and may not care because they want jet time to get them where they want to go eventually. We just cannot expect people to alter their career decision making process for the sake of our individual working conditions. I find it entertaining that this notion is even being entertained at all. We are a nation of individuals with individual goals. The kind of cohesion we would like to see could only be possible under a way of life more a kin to socialism then what we have here today. people just are not going to think that deeply about how a decision to go to work for a company like Mesa effects pilots industry wide..It has never been that way nor will it ever be that way.
It also affects them. It's their job/life. You are telling me you would apply for a job and not know as much as you could about that company? That is specifically why there is hostility towards other pilots. If you want to be a professional you can't act like a child that wondered into the middle of a movie. You are proving why there is hostility in the industry with that last post. Because every one wants their jet and doesn't care about anything else. According to you(in red) being out of college and starting your career is more important than your self worth or the industry. That being the case what the hell did you learn in college? This isn't 1979 type in Mesa, GoJet, JetBlue on the internet and tell me what people say? Look at their contracts(if they have them) and ask around. You answered your own question in regard to your topic in this post.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
All I'm trying to say is that the anger is pointless guys. You cannot control others and how they think. You cannot make them "see the light" and choose a better carrier. So the anger is an exercise in futility justified or not. The problems you guys mention are not going away...ever. It would take a mass leap in social evolution to foster the kind of mentality that would prevent people from taking jobs at carriers like Mesa. It is just fantasy land to think such a thing is possible. And being pissed about it is useless.

And for the record I don't work for Mesa and would never work for Mesa. I was generalizing dude as I personally do have enough self-worth to have made a decision to work for a carrier with the second highest 1st year F/O pay in the regionals. But I ain't gonna waste mental energy being mad at Joe Pilot for going to work for Mesa...It's just not worth it.
 

WalterSobchak

Well-Known Member
All I'm trying to say is that the anger is pointless guys. You cannot control others and how they think. You cannot make them "see the light" and choose a better carrier. So the anger is an exercise in futility justified or not. The problems you guys mention are not going away...ever. It would take a mass leap in social evolution to foster the kind of mentality that would prevent people from taking jobs at carriers like Mesa. It is just fantasy land to think such a thing is possible. And being pissed about it is useless.
Or re-regulation.

I think the hope is the ones you can influence you can save. To help some of the uneducated be educated and not go to the dark side I think that is the ultimate hope.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Now that I agree with. Re-regulation may help solve some of that...but it's not the end-all golden egg to industry woes and could potentially create as many new problems in the wake of old ones being solved. But that's another topic that has plenty of it's own threads. This about about anger management guys.
 

Velocipede

New Member
We are all going to do what we feel we have to to improve our quality of life, our wages and our individual job security.
Even if it means consigning another pilot group to unemployment. That's attractive.

...it would have been you flying the bus for $95 an hour. You can say you wouldn't all you want to. But the truth is that we are all out for ourselves in some way...You will never convince me of that otherwise.
Then that shows how little you know me. I would do something else before I did that, especially at a non-Union company. At least you admit YOU would.

There will never be the kind of industry-wide interline cohesion that causes pilot "A" at company "C" to make decisions about his or her career based on how it will effect pilot "C" at company "A". It's ridiculous to blame pilots for failing to foster a kind of industry that is impossible in a free market.
So, you have no personal responsibility for your actions and/or decisions? Well how about if the IBT had stood up and refused to fly Midwest's routes as a nod to Union solidarity. Unlikely, since YOUR Union has a history of attempting to entice pilot groups away from ALPA.

So what did you do? Let's walk the Midwest picket line with them. Except for the guys flying the MKE lines that day, of course.

Your are right! We are our own worst enemy, and as a whole we are no better then the managements we serve...Which is exactly my point..
But YOU enable those managements to undercut other pilot groups. No pilots, no airline. Get it? I guess not.

However as Velo was saying every time a new company pops up with substandard wages and people flock there they are only lowering the bar. If people had self control not to go to the GoJet, SkyBus,& JetBlues of the world then they would have to pay respectable wages.
And the people who argue most vehemently against you're point, Walt, are the ones who are the guiltiest.

Self control is something the industry lacks because every one wants to fly the shiny jet and talk about it more than having a good job that takes care of you. Why would any one go to Mesa when you know how they treat you? I just can't understand it. Yet they still have a seniority list.
Amazing, isn't it? I'll never forget the jumpseater I had one night who gushed about how she really wanted to work for jetBlue because "they're a real family over there."

Needless to say my F/Os eyes got real wide.

You wouldn't be mad if I started my regioanal airline fully staffed and you lost your job because people don't want to work for a paycheck?
But, its not HER ox getting gored. Its the Midwest guys and another reasonable pay scale heading right for Regional wages land. But, hey, she's getting an upgrade! Life is good.

If someone decides to go and work for a company with an established history of ridiculous management tactics that undermine the profession, then why should the rest of us who are making an effort to hold the line regarding the standards for the 121 profession llet them get off scott free?
But, hey, let's all give them a FREE ride to work and back because they've got a pilot's license. Nevermind their knife in your back or management's knife at your throat.

That's just it..I'd be mad at you...not your pilots.
But without the pilots, RSG, Walt wouldn't have an airline. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Again: WITHOUT PILOTS WALT WOULDN'T HAVE AN AIRLINE!

Get it?

We are a nation of individuals with individual goals. The kind of cohesion we would like to see could only be possible under a way of life more a kin to socialism then what we have here today. people just are not going to think that deeply about how a decision to go to work for a company like Mesa effects pilots industry wide..It has never been that way nor will it ever be that way.
Spoken like a true Republican. However, the Republican ideal serves one class in this country...the wealthy. And if you buy into the idea that "we are a nation of individuals" then we will never advance past individual self interest as a nation.

And then we are truely finished.

If your attitudes are shared by the bulk of young fliers today, I weep for this profession. Thank God I'll be long gone before you take the entire thing down the drain.

Just don't wonder why when you're making $70 an hour at the end of your career what went wrong.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
I'm not a republican, the notion of such a thing as political party affiliation is quite frankly not for me to the point where I won't even capitalize the word republican.. It sounds to me like you just need to have justification of pointless anger. If you want to be a child and respond to every sentence I wrote then fine Velo. Good for you...you have validated your anger...you can insult me and blame blame blame all you want to...what I want to know is, what do you get out of it? Does it make you feel better? Are you better off? Is the anger going away? Are conditions at your company improving? Is the industry getting better because Velo is pissed? You can lie to us man...but you can't lie to yourself. But I guess if you need all that anger to keep you warm at night then fine, blame me. It's my fault your company has problems and the industry is going down the drain. I admit it...its all me...there do you feel better now? Has that restored your emotional balance? Get a grip man! The golden days of the airline industry are GONE! The most absurd aspect of your entire position is that you are too obtuse to realize that this new generation of airline pilots have come into an industry that YOUR generation allowed to become so F'd up in the first place....So maybe you really need to blame yourself. Because I just find it hard to swallow that a group of pilots that you have so much contempt for, who on average have been in the biz for a whopping 1 to 2 years are responsible for the state of an industry that has been sliding downhill for the last twenty....
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
RSG, it is up to us as young aviators to stop the downward slide of the industry.

Mistakes have been made, no doubt about it. Are we suppose to accept those mistakes though? ..or.. Shouldn't we get involved and try to fix them?
 

SoCalAprch

Well-Known Member
Sorry, RSG, but you haven't been around long enough to see the degradation in wages and benefits due to the actions of other pilots.

Every time someone straps on an Airbus for $95 an hour or flys a MKE turn that has been outsourced, it hurts every one of us in the profession
.

Because every time this happens, management gets further proof that pilots are #####s who will do anything to get that upgrade or jet seat.
And you know what? They're right.

We're our own worst enemy.
Ill tell you what hurts our profession. Its the fact that some senior mainline guys threw scope away to get a few more bucks and a couple extra days off. If it weren't for that very reason none of this would be an issue. Its sickening that the almighty ALPA didn't have some sort of scope clause set up at Midwest. You don't think it pisses me off as you sit fat and dumb making a couple hundred an hour and have the nerve to yell at us for taking these jobs when guys like you are the ones who threw their scope away and allowed these jobs to be created.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
RSG, it is up to us as young aviators to stop the downward slide of the industry.

Mistakes have been made, no doubt about it. Are we suppose to accept those mistakes though? ..or.. Shouldn't we get involved and try to fix them?
Absolutely. I agree with that. And it makes me sick to know how much guys like Velo have lost. All the points he made are valid. But the point of this thread was to try to get some of us to realize that being angry with pilots for making bad career decisions, or for being employed with airlines that undercut other companies is getting us nowhere.

The anger is gonna have to end before any progress will ever be made. The blame game is a vicious circle. And it serves no purpose.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
But the point of this thread was to try to get some of us to realize that being angry with pilots for making bad career decisions, or for being employed with airlines that undercut other companies is getting us nowhere.
It only gets us nowhere because the sad reality is that most people in the industry are out for only themselves. I can count on one hand the number of pilot groups that, in recent years have made a decision for the greater good of the industry. One of them is probably going to go away because of it, and another one has over 100 guys on the street or in the wrong seat because of the decision they made. And yet in BOTH those cases, the other pilot group that DIRECTLY caused these issues either is still or was until recently hiring and growing.

Tough pill to swallow.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
Pilots have always hated pilots from other airlines. Take a look at Braniff and American back in the day. That is not going to stop.

We need more volunteerism from young pilots within ALPA. We need ALPA doing a much better job educating those in flight school, aviation related universities, etc. why one should work for ALPA airlines.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
So what is the solution here? Let's just all be pissed at each other? That's gonna get us where exactly? Anger is not a solution to anything. It solves nothing and only perpetuates misery and apathy.

So some pilot group...group being the operative word here...directly did something you are mad about...And your point is? So that anger will serve what purpose? To the extreme denying a jumpseat to the guy from Acme air helps you how? It helps us deal with these issues in what way?

Seems to me you senior guys just want to be angry....It's almost like you are addicted to it.

So I'll go out on a limb here...convince me Velo, BobDDuck or anyone...convince me getting pissed is gonna help...give me some solid examples of how anger has solved a problem within the industry? Enlighten me as to why I'm being so foolish for not being angry at Mesa guys or Colgan guys or whoever you want to single out as being the cause of your misery? Explain to me the process of how anger towards other pilots will directly result in positive action.
 
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