I'm going to start taking bets....

[Fly4Pay]

People defend the low-timer in the cockpit using the military as an example. However, we just aren't trained that extensively and that specialized. The military also has alot more resources, better standardization, training devices, methods, etc...list goes on and on why the military aviator is a better animal than us civilian trained folks.

SO... as a soon-to-be-former military pilot (ok, I guess I'm ALREADY "former", since I've flown my last flight), the thing that I want to try to sort out is: HOW do we bring the success of military training to commercial flying?

It's obvious that going by time isn't the answer--you could get in a 152, lean that sucker out, and fly at best endurance till you got 4000 hours, and it wouldn't make you qualified to fly a jet around. We ran into the same thing in the AF--a guy hits the "magic number" to upgrade to aircraft commander, and squadron leadership (who more often than not was NOT a pilot), would say the person should be an AC! The way we dealt with it was the "pilot mafia" had some say on who upgrades and who doesn't. If a person had the required time but showed poor decision-making or leadership ability, he'd get bypassed for upgrade. On the other hand, if someone knew their stuff and was ready for the challenge, we'd push to get a waiver and upgrade them early.

Now, hiring requirements are a different beast, I agree, but the same sort of thing needs to happen. As someone else mentioned, the hours just get you the interview--not the job. What needs to happen is that chief pilots and training directors need to look at a lot more than a logbook before making a hire. You can learn a LOT about a person in an interview. They need to really find out what a person is made of before hiring.

BUT... the root of the problem is that this is still a business, and the bottom line still rules. Yes, I agree I'd rather have more experienced people in the cockpit (and therefore better paid), but the fact is that we continue to get the job done, even with low-timers and low wages. What motivation is there for the business to make more restrictions on themselves? Business owners are looking for one thing--to maximize profits. Now, before someone hops in and says that safety is important too, let me say that I agree--but as of now, that safety hasn't been compromised.

I know what Seggy meant when he started this thread, talking about bets and all, and I ALSO know that he didn't mean it literally. But I also know what he means--it's only a matter of time till something like that happens. And sadly, THAT is the only thing that is going to change matters--an effect on the bottom line.

 

[SteveC]

I amazed how the attitudes towards low timers and instructing have done a complete 180 just in the last year.

Hmph. There are a lot of people here who's attitude has not changed in the last year. Everybody else is finally catching up.





Rather than double post, I'll just put a link to another post of mine with related info: http://forums.jetcareers.com/showthread.php?p=569352#post569352

 

[PositionAndHold]

I was interviewed with 555 hours in my logbook.So, yes, I WAS A LOW TIME HIRE and responsible for the lowering of the bar. However, after being in this industry for a short amount of time, looking back and trying to see the big picture, I am trying to do my part to make sure that this practice is changed.

So if your company woke up one day and said; "You know your right seggy, we shouldn't hire any one with less then 5000 hours. So we are going to fire every one with less time then that, and we will be safe"

I am sure you would just fine with that.

We all strive to be safe. There have been Capts at majors that have no busuness being PIC. They get by because of a good FO. The other way around has been true for years. The accidents happen when two of "those guys" get paired up together. Look at the Air Canada crash last year. A "high time" FO didn't deploy reverse thrust for 17 seconds after landing more then half way down the runway. I'm not trying to say what happened in that crash, but those are just two facts from it.

 

[FatBastard]

Well, this is probably the most likely scenario........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz3tBpS03Rw

What do y'all think??

 

[zmiller4]

So if your company woke up one day and said; "You know your right seggy, we shouldn't hire any one with less then 5000 hours. So we are going to fire every one with less time then that, and we will be safe"

I am sure you would just fine with that.

That's unfair. Not to speak for Seggy, but it seems like he's just decrying the current state of airline hiring (which you have to admit is pretty sad...250/multi comm? are you kidding?).

I completely agree with Seggy's point--there has to be established minimums to ensure safety. The airlines in the US seem unwilling to screen, finance, and ensure the progression of prospective pilots to the same extent as the military (and foreign ab-initio airline programs, as well)...and this means that they must weed out candidates somehow. Unfortunately, the average airline's SIC training/type ride doesn't accurately determine the effectiveness of a crewmember. They have to trust that the training background of the FO is sufficient to allow them some semblance of self-control in an abnormal situation. While having a minimum hour requirement doesn't guarantee anything, at least it's a start!

 

[daru1]

WOW! Let me know how the view is from all ya'lls high horses.

Could not have said this better myself. I can understand your frustration that in our 'market' the supply is limited and demand is high... lowest bidder... blah blah... But knocking these new pilots for lack of hours because you feel they shouldn't be flying around is just sickening. To better your argument, maybe you should say that these people being hired at regionals are lazy and stupid... Maybe they miss whole days of classes when hired, and the airlines are still letting them fly... Maybe they don't have to have a ride with a check pilot ever, and the airlines are still letting them fly... Maybe -- You get the picture.

There's a lot of cynicism in medicine, there's lot of 'low time doctors' out there, but the point is that they are trained to do what they do. There are checks on the system at every turn to make sure that the training has worked for the individual. There's recertification that must be done. Going through that system makes you qualified -- yes even with low-time you are allowed to practice, just ask the new attending class about to graduate in June. Experience comes with time, that's the way it is in all aspects of life. But I'll be damned if I say that a new-hire attending surgeon can't operate on me -- especially in an emergency -- just because he/she has only been out of residency for a couple of months.

 

[kellwolf]

Bingo. I know at most regionals, the HR and training depts jobs are to get people to pass training and fill seats. Do they actually KNOW the material? They must, they passed the course right? See my other post about gouges and copies of tests floating around. I KNOW there are people in my ground school that passed without knowing the stuff. They knew the answers on the test though. Some washed in the sims, some made it through by pure luck. Honestly, until a crash (or in our case ANOTHER crash) occurs, the training dept won't change. High altitude aerodynamics wasn't even included in training until the 3701 crash, and it's still just a hand out they say "Read this" instead of going over it. I lost count how many times myself or a class mate asked a question and were told "Don't worry, you'll learn that on the line" or "Oh....that's CA stuff. Don't worry about that."

 

[Sprint100]

So if your company woke up one day and said; "You know your right seggy, we shouldn't hire any one with less then 5000 hours. So we are going to fire every one with less time then that, and we will be safe"

OK, you are going to the extreme and not comprehending what Seggy has put in previous posts. When I say previous posts don't take one of his lines or one of his paragraphs and run with it. The cumulitive of his thoughts in his posts show a much different picture than what your statement implies.

But hey, this is the internet so speculation will be made and words will be put into mouths.

 

[PositionAndHold]

Double post....doh!

 

[PositionAndHold]

While I agree there should be a min number. The way Seggy seems to be going about making his point is a little odd. From my point of view he seems to be saying, "I got here with low mins, but people behind me shouldn't be allowed the same opportunity". It's almost like saying they were crazy for hiring me with such low time. But like seggy said he did well in the training environment and has done well since.

I was a low time guy when I went to recurrent training on the Lear 45. The insurance didn't require a type, they just wanted me to go to Flight Safety. I didn't get the chance for long ground school since it was a recurrent session. But before I went I studied for about 3 months. I was able to make up for a lack of experience with hard studying. I had to do all the PNF and PF duties, including the Sim instructor killing the capt during a right engine fire on take off. That doesn't mean I am some super pilot, just that Flight Safety was aware of my background and wanted to be sure I was ok. Now that I have about 1000 hours and around 300 of Lear time, I still fell like I was ready for the chance I was given.



It's the guys that have no business making decisions about what to eat, let alone pic stuff that scares me. And when you put two of those guys together, that's when bad things happen.



You guys have fun tonight. Have to go, GF getting mad. It's Sat night, time to drink!

 

[kellwolf]

I was a low time guy when I went to recurrent training on the Lear 45. The insurance didn't require a type, they just wanted me to go to Flight Safety. I didn't get the chance for long ground school since it was a recurrent session. But before I went I studied for about 3 months. I was able to make up for a lack of experience with hard studying. I had to do all the PNF and PF duties, including the Sim instructor killing the capt during a right engine fire on take off. That doesn't mean I am some super pilot, just that Flight Safety was aware of my background and wanted to be sure I was ok. Now that I have about 1000 hours and around 300 of Lear time, I still fell like I was ready for the chance I was given.

See, there's a difference b/w Flight Safety and airline training, though. At airline training, they really don't delve into what you did before. Doesn't matter if you went to ATP and have wet ink on your ticket or you came from Skywest, Pinnacle, Mesa or GoJets and know the aircraft. Everyone gets the same deal. Why? It's cheaper that way than going the smaller class route and getting some individual attention. What's the average class size at FSI? At Pinnacle classes are running about 30 FOs right now.

You also had the opportunity to study up a lot in advance. With hiring now it's "Congrats, you got the job. Can you be here on Monday?" A fellow JCer had to pull teeth to get memory items and limitations sent to him so he could study them before he got to class.

I don't have a problem with the people taking jobs at low time. I've said it before, and I'll continue to say it: I would have done the same. Looking back on how much I knew when I was at 250-300TT, I had NO business being in a jet. I didn't have near the experience in the ATC system that I needed. Thankfully, I got PLENTY of that teaching IR ratings in the DFW area. I hadn't even flown a departure procedure until I got to GKY. You get one there if you file IFR whether you're flying a Lear or an IFR equipped Piper Cub.

 

[SIUAv8r]

Take a look at the Shuttle America incident in CLE. Not sure, but I would bet one hundred bucks that the Captain and/or First Officer was a graduate from an aviation university who was hired at Republic with a 'bridge' program. Can anyone confirm this? It is only a matter of time...

Mins at Republic/Shuttle for the EMB-170 are still 1500TT

 

[Seggy]

While I agree there should be a min number. The way Seggy seems to be going about making his point is a little odd. From my point of view he seems to be saying, "I got here with low mins, but people behind me shouldn't be allowed the same opportunity". It's almost like saying they were crazy for hiring me with such low time. But like seggy said he did well in the training environment and has done well since.

P and H. I have said a few times in this post that I have NO problem with the individual getting hired with low time. If someone said we want you to fly a plane in a 121 environment with 250 hours will you? I would say yes.

It is NOT the individual but the industry that allows low hire guys I have an issue with. I didn't think it was a problem a year and a half ago when I was hired. I had NO idea. Seeing what I see now, the INDUSTRY needs to wake up.

Good for those that were hired with low time.

We as pilots need to see what is going on around us.

Mins at Republic/Shuttle for the EMB-170 are still 1500TT

There were a ton of graduates from a large aviation university in Indiana that had lower hiring mins for Republic/CHQ in the E-145. They could have gone to the 145 then the 170. I would like to see if the Captain or FO from that accident was a product of that program.

 

[SIUAv8r]

I was unaware of that Seggy. Could definitely be the case!

 

[BobDDuck]

Mins at Republic/Shuttle for the EMB-170 are still 1500TT

Actually they are down to 1000/500 for the 170 but that's neither here nor there.


I think what a lot of people are missing (and they are the ones on the outside looking in) is that airline training, while good, is not a cure all for weak pilot skills. Sure, you will get a bunch of tests along the way and will have a sim ride and have a line check, but there are TONS of people that make it through that that really shouldn't. I can think of multiple people at the company I am at that had no business get out of training and yet were released to the line. There are a few that several months later you still hear CA grumbling about when they have to fly with them.

Remember... just because you can make it through training doesn't really mean much more then the fact that you can fly a sim profile and run a QRH.

 

[zmiller4]

See, there's a difference b/w Flight Safety and airline training, though.

Another difference: My sim partner from Eagle failed his probabtionary check and was let go. He got hired by an air ambulance company, went to Flightsafety for his ATP/Lear type/135 checkride, and later told me how absolutely easy it was. I'm not sure if Eagle's training is all that difficult, but that was pretty telling to me...

 

[kellwolf]

I can think of multiple people at the company I am at that had no business get out of training and yet were released to the line. There are a few that several months later you still hear CA grumbling about when they have to fly with them.

Same here. The CA I'm flying with this month asked me two questions when I first met him "How long have you been here and what did you do before this?" I told him a little more than a year and CFIed for about 8 months. He then asked "Well, do you know how to fly the plane yet? The guy I flew with yesterday said he'd been here about as long and....well, he didn't have a clue." Turned out it was one of the guys from my new hire class, AND he may have gotten the CA violated.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

AmazingPilot, I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth or saying about my actions what I will do when/if another plane crashes.

When I found out about the Comair accident in LEX, the first thing I did was call my buddy who commutes out of LEX to make sure he was not on the flight. That is the first thing I will do when/if another plane goes down, pray that none of my friends are on it. I will take NO pleasure when/if a plane goes down. You are a sick individual for even implying I would think something like that. I feel that there is something wrong with this industry. I am trying to do something about it, making people think about it, rather than sitting at home on the computer silent about it.

About the hiring and hours. If one has an opportunity to be hired with that low time, then GO GET HIRED. If you read my posts I have helped others, on here with lower time than I had get a job. However, all I ask is have an open mind and think about the process and journey. If you feel like it is to low, advocate about it.

I would avoid personal remarks about my 'ego'. Trust me you really don't want to go there. I want this post to stay in General Topics, not down the toilet in the lav. If you want to make any personal remarks to me, then the PM function works great!

I encourage ANYONE out there to follow their dreams, no matter what point you are in your career. Just keep an open mind about the journey!

You tell em Balboa!

 

[S.T.Aviator]

So if your company woke up one day and said; "You know your right seggy, we shouldn't hire any one with less then 5000 hours. So we are going to fire every one with less time then that, and we will be safe"

I am sure you would just fine with that.

We all strive to be safe. There have been Capts at majors that have no busuness being PIC. They get by because of a good FO. The other way around has been true for years. The accidents happen when two of "those guys" get paired up together. Look at the Air Canada crash last year. A "high time" FO didn't deploy reverse thrust for 17 seconds after landing more then half way down the runway. I'm not trying to say what happened in that crash, but those are just two facts from it.

I believe you are refering to the Air France A340 accident in Toronto the summer of 2005.

 

[deek]

I would like to know what you all consider to be "enough time" to fly to push the AP button (I know that’s gonna hit the fan) but I know my friend who was at Colgan and now training to be on real jets, reads the paper and watches his Ipod 90% of the time. Who's to say that 1000, or 3000 hours is enough? I'm sure some people get more experience out of 200hrs, then some do out of 1000. And lets not look at the fact that there are still tons and tons of crashes being cause by human pilot error with high time pilots because they are set in their ways and don’t bother to read the check lists anymore ect… Plus we're are the new guys suppose to get the kind of training needed if they can't get there, kinda a catch 22 don't you think. I'm saying maybe new hires should have longer probation periods and have constant check ups with check airmen to make sure they are on the right path to being safe and successful. Besides, the low time airline pilots aren't my big concern, my bigger concern when I start flight school is to have some kid who got his CFI the week before, be my instructor. I think it's more of a sham to let someone with -200 hours teach others to fly, and who might not even be out of high-school yet.