I'm getting a little bit discouraged

Polar742 said:
The serious lack of PIC time concerns me about the MPL.

Only when your ass is on the line will you gain experience you need to be a safe pilot.

Trust me. I checked out plenty of near-career FOs when they came to RAH as J4J Captains.

The guys were all smart, they could all fly well, but it was blatantly obvious they weren't thinking far enough ahead to be a high-level performer as a Captain. They also were a bit timid about making decisions.

I witnessed this in the OE and annual linecheck department.

The last thing someone needs in a hot situation is an individual that hasn't had to make decisions in the cockpit for 15 years. Or worse, you have the CA pass out and now the FO, who's never had to make a decision by themselves in an airplane have a full boat of passengers and crew, helpless and oblivious in the back, over the rockies at night and this guy has to do all the diversion planning.

Your support for the MPL leads me to believe that you've never been involved in the training of Captains at the regional level, nor in any safety programs like ASAP. Either of which would expose you to problems, that in my estimation, would grow in a large and rapid succession if an MPL program is initiated.

And don't try to twist it that I'm scared of low time guys in airplanes or regionals or anything else. I'm all for ab initio. I'm all for a professional pilot track of training that is tightly done. I'm all for the US to institude a "frozen" ATP to prove that anyone flying in a 135 or 121 environment have demonstrated the aptitude (there's seaav8or's word) for the job.

You wanna bet your life it won't happen to you? If the MPL comes to fruition, you'd better be able to do that.
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Thats one of my initial issues with the MPL concept. I'm not "doom and gloom" about it, but there are portions of it that concern me. This part, with the FO-mode and never having to be the guy in the left seat with the weight of the decision making; makes me fear that it'd be creating (to use a military term) career wingmen....who may or may not be able to step up and be ready to take the helm when the time came. Or, who would always be looking to their left for the security of the guy sitting.....not thoroughly prepped for the time when they look to the left and see their own reflection, as Velo has eloquently stated before.

Now, the argument to this can be that they're always getting trained and are always soaking up knowledge from their time in the right seat. While there's merit to that concept, I still believe that time is needed in the "hot seat" to really get the exposure, experience, and hence the confidence to really be ready to become a Capt of a pax airliner. To me, thats where places like CFIing, single pilot 135 cargo, or any other of the myriad of broad experience-gaining flying jobs...where it's really just YOU there making the decisions and getting the experience, really pay off. Just seems that the exposure the MPL will get will be such a limited part of aviation as a whole.

I'm not saying the MPL is unsafe, but I'm not yet fully convinced of the viability of it. I'd have to see more of it.
 
Dugie8 said:
There were a lot of PFEs at ATI that did the in house upgrade program. Some had 6-7k hours as a PFE on the DC8, I think the washout rate was close to 50%, that doesn't include the few that had IOE that lasted until they went back to recurrent, went through the "program" multiple times, etc.
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Understood, and I'm sure there is atrophy of skills when not touching the controls for that long. However, comparing a well-seasoned (whatever you may consider that) pilot to a guy who has 240TT and sits right seat, I know who wins in my mind. Comparing a 240TT MCL person to a guy who has at least some experience in a cockpit sitting in the FE seat is a completely different comparison.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I'm tired...so it's time for bed. I'll see if you guys solve this one overnight!!;)
 
My road to aviation has been a rocky one. I am one of the eight percent of males who is cursed with color blindness. I have dreamed of being a pilot my entire life. Suffice it to say it has been a painful journey going through my adult years with little direction in my life, not having a passion for anything other than aviation, yet not being able to do the thing I have loved so dearly. Last year, at age 26, as I was finishing my biology degree, I finally found an alternate color vision test I could pass. You'd think this would be the magic bullet that would usher in my aviation career, right?

Well, with the economy the way it is, I couldn't find a good job and I decided to pick a recession proof occupation: nursing. In two more years I will have a BS in Nursing degree and be making 23 to 24 dollars an hour right out of school. I'll be home every night, and have 4 days off a week. Besides all of that, I've found I really love nursing. Now, the prospect of paying for 50,000 in flight training after nursing school to start an aviation career later in my life seems irresponsible. My love of aviation has not faded, but my desire for a career has. In nursing, one can move anywhere in the country and work in virtually any setting. I can carry my experience with me and demand top dollar for it, and get it. I'll have a solid retirement. I can't see starting over again at the bottom making 20K as a regional FO and working my way up, facing low pay, furlough, etc. I want to enjoy my 30's. What's more, after I've worked a year as a nurse, I can go to nurse anesthesia school and come out making 200 to 250K a year with 8-12 weeks of vacation and a great pension. This is now my career goal. I love the science, the physiology and pharmacology behind anesthesia. I'll never have to worry about being laid off or starting over at the bottom. If I become a nurse anesthetist, I'll have the income to fly for leisure and perhaps own my own plane.

For myself, I think I am better off not pursuing aviation as a career, for reasons started above. If for some reason I ever did, I'd have nursing to fall back on. I've said all of this to say, that just becuase one loves aviation, does not mean one should necessarily pursue it as a career. I've found another career that I love, and I can still love aviation on the side...I could even flight instruct part-time. At any rate, I'm going to enjoy my 30's...making lots of money, with lots of time off, which means lots of time with my little boy, lots of time to ride horses and mountain climb, and hopefully one day, a big house in the country with a wife and more kids...that's my dream now. Aviation won't get me there; nursing will. Sometimes dreams change when circumstances in our lives change. Don't be so inflexible that a "love" blinds to you a better opportunity.
 
In the first few years of my career with TWA I got considerable experience checking out in the right seat of a 707 with about 250 hours total pilot time. In 1964, 1965 UAL and TWA hired pilots with a private license and a four year degree and loaned them the money to get their commercial. When I hired in 1966 UAL and flying Tigers required a high school diploma and a commercial TWA and Eastern required the equivalent of two years of college. American required 500 hours CAL and Western required 1000.

The hard part was scoring high enough on preemployment tests that measured intelligence as it applied to basic engineering. A typical question was "if a train passes your position blowing its whistle will the pitch increase decrease or stay the same". Very little of the testing that I took for UAL, TWA and Flying Tigers had much to do with actually flying an airplane.

I think it was Doug Taylor who correctly stated that they want to teach you to do it their way, and they have the facilities to do that. They issued all the new guys a book entitled something like "how to fly the big jets" that explained the differences between light airplanes and jet transports.

As part of our initial FE training we were given four hours sim time in the right seat and at least three takeoffs and landings in the actual aircraft. I was a little apprehensive about going from a C150 to a 707 but I found out it was no big deal. An airplane is an airplane.

Some of the guys that were hired two years before me went straight into the right seat and never flew FE. Some of those guys got a captain bid on the DC-9 in two years. One of the guys in my class lived in Chicago and because it was a junior domicile he went straight into the right seat of a Convair 880. I flew with a 25-year-old 707 Capt. who four years earlier was a CFI flying Cherokees. I flew out of LAX which was senior and upgraded to FO the first time in two years.

The other side of this story is that if you failed to upgrade to FO or Capt. on your first try you got fired to the street, and in the early days they forced you to upgrade pretty much in seniority. The failure rate for Capt. upgrades at that time was about 10%. There was really no correlation between experience level, military or civilian and who failed. The guys like me who really wanted to keep the job were highly motivated by fear and therefore worked hard and went through initial FO without much trouble.

Flying FO on a three-man crew was not much more challenging than FE because the workload was relatively low. Most of us got bumped back a seat through the 70s and after about 15 years FE it was a little more challenging to go from L-1011 FE to the two-man MD-80/DC-9. I could have gone a little easier route by upgrading to FO and Capt. on the three-man 727 but I wanted to finish out my career on two-man equipment.

For today's two-man short leg operations I would think 1000 to 2000 hours of CFI time or a job where you do a lot of single pilot actual instrument flying would be the best experience.
 
Excellent write up once again MD-80. Maybe this will open the eyes of a few JCers that think going from a Seminole to a CRJ is so horrid!
 
Trip7 said:
EVERYBODY'S pay has gone down due to inflation. Even Doctors and lawyers pay has gone down significantly compared to the past. That comes with the territory when you work for "the man" in corporate America.
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You obviously have NOT talked to anyone in accounting for a surgical group practice. Primary care and all the other specialties that use a ballpoint pen as their primary instrument, yes. The specialties that use a knife, their M.D. stands for Mucho Dinero.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Not really. This industry has always been cyclical. This is about the worst it's been in a while, but contracts are about to start getting a hell of a lot better (take a look at the new Alaska narrowbody rates), and retirements will be starting up again in 3 years at an incredible rate. Things will get better. If you want to fly airplanes for a living, then opportunities for good jobs are ahead. Make sure you're ready when the next hiring wave comes.
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I have been flying since 1976. Watching the industry since 1976. The "always cyclical" you reference does not take into consideration that each down is greater than each up. Over time losses are never recovered. The Alaska rates you use are a perfect example. In 2004 their top 12 yr CA rate was $197. Adjusted for inflation it would now have to be $230. It now stands at $172. You say "Hey that's good enough for me!". You start out on your quest. You spend 8 yrs at a commuter then another 12 at Alaska to reach the top of scale in the left seat 20 years from now.

In the above example 25% was lost adjusted for inflation over 5 years. At that rate (25% per 5 years), 20 years from now you will be making $54 per hour in today's dollars. This has been going on since the late 70s. To call the bottom in after 30+ years of a very well established trend line is not very smart at all. People who do that in the investment world are usually mocked as "Bag Holders".

172*.75= $129
129*.75= $97
97*.75= $73
73*.75= $54

One step forward and two steps back. It's been that way for a very long time. Denial is a great way to deal with it.

http://www.landings.com/_landings/stories/captainicarus.html
 
seaav8tor said:
The "always cyclical" you reference does not take into consideration that each down is greater than each up. Over time losses are never recovered.
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I am glad someone else is saying it other than me..

Every single down turn in the industry just makes the next up turn that much lower.. It will *NEVER* go back to the way it was in 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990 or 2000..

Those days are GONE..

The days of "get to a regional, get your 1000 hours of PIC and get out" are OVER..

Regional pay sucks because people could afford to be poor for a short period of time, upgrade make a little better pay and then move on.. Now guys are getting "stuck" at the regionals..
 
As much as I'd like to be an airline pilot someday, I just can't see it being worth it. I like ATC a lot and will probably end up doing that. ATC offers stability, good benefits, and good pay compared to the average airline pilot. It just makes me sad to see these aviation college students who actually believe they will be 74 captains at 40 yrs old. Are they really that naive?
 
tonyw said:
If you agree with my statement that love doesn't pay the bills, then it would seem that you completely disagree with the do it because you like it comment you just made.

Do it for the money. It's a job. You do it for the money, not because you love it.
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If you're only in it for the money, then there is no reason to enter the aviation industry. There are many, many professions that pay more.

The only reason to fly for a living is the love of it.
 
flyingwriter said:
The only reason to fly for a living is the love of it.
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It's that mentality that makes it ok for people to spend $100,000 for an $18,000/yr job. You make it sound as though you can't want to make a decent living without "only being in it for the money." Should pilots be happy living in poverty because they get to do what they like? I agree that people should choose a career path because it's what they want to do, but there is nothing wrong with expecting a reasonable living while doing it.
 
flyingwriter said:
If you're only in it for the money, then there is no reason to enter the aviation industry. There are many, many professions that pay more.

The only reason to fly for a living is the love of it.
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I never got in it for the money.. Being able to survive and have a decent QOL would be nice...

Flying for a living and flying because you live to usually involve two types of flying..

Now I'm trying to find a new profession...
 
flyingwriter said:
If you're only in it for the money, then there is no reason to enter the aviation industry. There are many, many professions that pay more.

The only reason to fly for a living is the love of it.
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That is the totally wrong attitude to have. Just because you love something doesn't mean you shouldn't be paid according to your training, education and responsibility level.

Look at pro athletes, you think they play simply for the love of the game? Sure, they love that they are professionals and get to play a game for a living, but you dont see them undercutting each other to play for the best team. On the contrary, every off season the free agents go out and get the best deal they can, raising the bar for everyone involved. I know its not a direct apples to apples comparison, but the message is the same.

Find a job you enjoy and can see yourself doing for the rest of your life. However, dont allow management to use that enjoyment as leverage to continually decrease pay and QOL. In the end it is a job, if we were all wealthy, we would all be flying our own planes around on our own schedule. We would NOT be ferrying around, or aspiring to ferry, non-appreciative, obnoxious and demanding public who could care less about your pay and work rules.
 
Matt13C said:
That is the totally wrong attitude to have. Just because you love something doesn't mean you shouldn't be paid according to your training, education and responsibility level.

Look at pro athletes, you think they play simply for the love of the game? Sure, they love that they are professionals and get to play a game for a living, but you dont see them undercutting each other to play for the best team. On the contrary, every off season the free agents go out and get the best deal they can, raising the bar for everyone involved. I know its not a direct apples to apples comparison, but the message is the same.

Find a job you enjoy and can see yourself doing for the rest of your life. However, dont allow management to use that enjoyment as leverage to continually decrease pay and QOL. In the end it is a job, if we were all wealthy, we would all be flying our own planes around on our own schedule. We would NOT be ferrying around, or aspiring to ferry, non-appreciative, obnoxious and demanding public who could care less about your pay and work rules.
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:yeahthat:
 
A friend of mine plays for the Nationals.. He makes ~$2.4mil a year.. There is no way on earth he'd play for $25,000 a year..
 
tjvpa28 said:
I agree that people should choose a career path because it's what they want to do, but there is nothing wrong with expecting a reasonable living while doing it.
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You can expect whatever you like. But the reality is the job is going to pay what the market will allow and nothing more. And if there are 1000 guys out there who are just as experienced and talented as you and all of them are willing to do your job for poverty wages, then poverty wages are what you're going to get regardless of what you expect.
 
seaav8tor said:
You say "Hey that's good enough for me!".
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Where did I say "good enough?" I think most people on this forum know me well enough to know that I would never think it's enough. The old DAL rates of $230/hr for a 737 Captain weren't even "enough." We have a long way to go to get back to something even resembling what it should be. But that doesn't mean that we need to be pessimists and completely give up on this profession. Things are looking pretty good for this bargaining cycle, and I think we have a very good chance of making up all of the ground that we lost post-9/11 by the end of the cycle. If we don't have another 9/11-style event before the next bargaining cycle, then we can start to make improvements beyond the pre-9/11 contracts. Things aren't all doom and gloom.
 
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