I'm getting a little bit discouraged

Itchy said:
I remember an article in Flying magazine a while ago, titled "The glory days are over." Or something close to that.
Required reading for anyone considering jumping in.

It's over Johnny.
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:yeahthat:

And this is one of the reasons why I am so grateful to Dough for this site. Hearing the good, the bad, and the ugly kept me from going hard core for all the ratings. Right now, I'd be a miserable SOB and I'd be a real joy to fly with because I'd be one bitter mofo.

I'd have gone in thinking I could have gotten a piece of the glory days, when those days have long passed.

Dough has saved me about $50K in training costs, and a lifetime of therapy. Plus the site allowed me to meet someone who helped me find my current job.
 
wheelsup said:
And? Most peoples pay goes up with inflation, it doesn't get cut by 75%.
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EVERYBODY'S pay has gone down due to inflation. Even Doctors and lawyers pay has gone down significantly compared to the past. That comes with the territory when you work for "the man" in corporate America.

Now investor and exec pay? Their pay increase has exceeded inflation.

jtrain609 said:
Maybe at your airline that's how things work, but not everywhere.

Continental ops out of Newark were not exactly a well oiled machine. There were many days when nothing is filed correctly, the fueler is no where to be found, the gate agents don't show up, the F/A is inept and you quite literally do EVERYTHING if you want to get the flight pushed back.

The other hubs seemed to function a lot better, but things don't always go according to plan in 121 flying.
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Murdoughnut said:
Personally, I don't think pilots were ever worth $250k a year
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That's probably the most disgusting thing I've ever read on this forum. :mad:

crjsomeday said:
A pension? No thanks, odds are very good that it would not exist when you retire anyway. (DAL,USAIR,UNITED, need i continue?) Save and investing on your own is a better plan.
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There are two kinds of pensions: A-Fund and B-Fund. You're thinking of A-Funds, which are pretty much disappearing in this industry, although a few are still around. B-Funds, on the other hand, are kept in a private account in your own name, and they can't be taken away in bankruptcy. I have a 10.5% B-Fund, which means that the company contributes 10.5% of my gross pay to my retirement account without me having to contribute a single dime. Anything I put into my 401k on my own is just gravy.

Trip7 said:
Bottom line is, everyone is just discouraged because we are in a recession and the impact of Age 65 has not worn off yet.
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That is something that everyone needs to remember. Without Age 65 there would be no furloughs right now. All furloughs would have been canceled out by Age 60 retirements. Had it not been for Age 65, UAL would have retired approximately 500 pilots since late '07 when the age changed. Think about that. When this runs out and retirements start again in 2012, the pilot job market will look a lot better.

Doug will probably tell you the post 9-11 forum atmosphere was very similar to what we are experiencing today.
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Agreed. I wasn't on JC back then, but I've been a regular on Flightinfo since early 2001, and it was basically the same doom-and-gloom after 9/11 too. Things always get better.

Trip7 said:
Excellent write up!
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Agreed! Always cool to hear from someone that's been around for that long. And to everyone that's so frightened of the possibility of the MPL license, take a look at how much time MD-80 had when he was hired at one of the premier legacy airlines of his day: 200 TT. He obviously didn't crater an airplane because of his low time.

Tram said:
Yeh, with one huge exception, the write up is 99.5% pre-911..

The airline industry we work in and the airline industry he worked in are two COMPLETELY different animals..
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Not really. This industry has always been cyclical. This is about the worst it's been in a while, but contracts are about to start getting a hell of a lot better (take a look at the new Alaska narrowbody rates), and retirements will be starting up again in 3 years at an incredible rate. Things will get better. If you want to fly airplanes for a living, then opportunities for good jobs are ahead. Make sure you're ready when the next hiring wave comes.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Agreed! Always cool to hear from someone that's been around for that long. And to everyone that's so frightened of the possibility of the MPL license, take a look at how much time MD-80 had when he was hired at one of the premier legacy airlines of his day: 200 TT. He obviously didn't crater an airplane because of his low time.
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Just to pick at this a little bit, I believe he also sat side saddle for 10 years. Yes, I know there were people hired back then low time, but most did not enjoy sitting forward for a while and had experience when they did...
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Not really. This industry has always been cyclical. This is about the worst it's been in a while, but contracts are about to start getting a hell of a lot better (take a look at the new Alaska narrowbody rates), and retirements will be starting up again in 3 years at an incredible rate. Things will get better. If you want to fly airplanes for a living, then opportunities for good jobs are ahead. Make sure you're ready when the next hiring wave comes.
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Better than US Airways A330 CA rates....
 
Stone Cold said:
Just to pick at this a little bit, I believe he also sat side saddle for 10 years. yes, I know there were people hired back then low time, but most did not enjoy sitting forward for a while and had experience when they did...
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Sitting side-saddle is not really flight experience, which is what the MPL nonbelievers say that they worry so much about.
 
poser765 said:
Sorry to break in...and i'll break right back out...but what is MPL?
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Multicrew Pilot License

It's a new ICAO idea that's been in development for several years. The idea is that new pilots train from day one to be airline pilots instead of going through the traditional PVT-INST-COMM-MULTI-CFI path. You finish with about 240 hours, a lot of which is in the sim, and you're qualified to be a copilot on an airliner. Several countries are already trying it out, and the FAA is considering it here in the States.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Sitting side-saddle is not really flight experience, which is what the MPL nonbelievers say that they worry so much about.
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So, if you are a FE, you are not on a flight deck soaking up knowledge??? Hmmm, news to me. What do I know, I've never sat in an airline cockpit, so if you are the all-knowing and say so, then it must be.

Anybody that did the FE route think it helped you in the experience department? I mean, PCL, ATN, whatever says it's not flight experience...
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Multicrew Pilot License

It's a new ICAO idea that's been in development for several years. The idea is that new pilots train from day one to be airline pilots instead of going through the traditional PVT-INST-COMM-MULTI-CFI path. You finish with about 240 hours, a lot of which is in the sim, and you're qualified to be a copilot on an airliner. Several countries are already trying it out, and the FAA is considering it here in the States.
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hmm interesting. :whatever:
 
Stone Cold said:
So, if you are a FE, you are not on a flight deck soaking up knowledge??? Hmmm, news to me. What do I know, I've never sat in an airline cockpit, so if you are the all-knowing and say so, then it must be.

Anybody that did the FE route think it helped you in the experience department? I mean, PCL, ATN, whatever says it's not flight experience...
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You may be "soaking up knowledge," but you aren't flying an airplane with your hands on the controls. I agree that it's valuable experience, but I'm also not one of the guys that thinks the MPL is a nightmare because someone hasn't learned how to do chandelles and lazy 8s then spent a year as a CFI.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You may be "soaking up knowledge," but you aren't flying an airplane with your hands on the controls. I agree that it's valuable experience, but I'm also not one of the guys that thinks the MPL is a nightmare because someone hasn't learned how to do chandelles and lazy 8s then spent a year as a CFI.
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So, you'd prefer people go to Gulfstream, basically??? Seriously, for having no CFI experience and the way you came into this industry, you are not impressing me with how you are going to help people out. The MCL is a BAD idea!!! Build experience, not as the right-hand man in an airliner. The only thing that will happen is management will use this to further degrade the bar, which affects everybody.
 
Stone Cold said:
So, you'd prefer people go to Gulfstream, basically???
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Not at all. I'd prefer that airlines be forced into a situation where the supply of pilots has dried up and they're required to train pilots from zero time in an MPL style environment at the airline's expense.

Seriously, for having no CFI experience and the way you came into this industry, you are not impressing me with how you are going to help people out.
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I was a CFI for about a year and a half. Check your facts before getting all worked up.

The MCL is a BAD idea!!! Build experience, not as the right-hand man in an airliner. The only thing that will happen is management will use this to further degrade the bar, which affects everybody.
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I was just making a side comment. I wasn't intending to hijack the thread. Feel free to start another thread if you want an expanded debate on the topic.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Not at all. I'd prefer that airlines be forced into a situation where the supply of pilots has dried up and they're required to train pilots from zero time in an MPL style environment at the airline's expense.
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See, I'd rather they expend capital on paying a fair wage.



I was a CFI for about a year and a half. Check your facts before getting all worked up.
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Fair enough. I did not know you instructed. I still stick by my guns on getting experience in small airplanes, either flight instructing, towing banners, throwing meat missiles, aerial survey, whatever floats your boat but build experience before you have paying passengers on board. Then move on to 135, either freight or charter. Get some weather experience before you move into flying the "short bus". Yes, it is not the same and there is a learning curve, but at least you bring something to help the captain when getting paid to fly 50-90+ passengers around.



I was just making a side comment. I wasn't intending to hijack the thread. Feel free to start another thread if you want an expanded debate on the topic.
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I think that horse has been beaten enough for now and will be beaten more as the FAA gets closer to implementation, but wanted to not leave that carrot dangling...


All of this is purely my opinion, of course, and worth what you paid.:D
 
The serious lack of PIC time concerns me about the MPL.

Only when your ass is on the line will you gain experience you need to be a safe pilot.

Trust me. I checked out plenty of near-career FOs when they came to RAH as J4J Captains.

The guys were all smart, they could all fly well, but it was blatantly obvious they weren't thinking far enough ahead to be a high-level performer as a Captain. They also were a bit timid about making decisions.

I witnessed this in the OE and annual linecheck department.

The last thing someone needs in a hot situation is an individual that hasn't had to make decisions in the cockpit for 15 years. Or worse, you have the CA pass out and now the FO, who's never had to make a decision by themselves in an airplane have a full boat of passengers and crew, helpless and oblivious in the back, over the rockies at night and this guy has to do all the diversion planning.

Your support for the MPL leads me to believe that you've never been involved in the training of Captains at the regional level, nor in any safety programs like ASAP. Either of which would expose you to problems, that in my estimation, would grow in a large and rapid succession if an MPL program is initiated.

And don't try to twist it that I'm scared of low time guys in airplanes or regionals or anything else. I'm all for ab initio. I'm all for a professional pilot track of training that is tightly done. I'm all for the US to institude a "frozen" ATP to prove that anyone flying in a 135 or 121 environment have demonstrated the aptitude (there's seaav8or's word) for the job.

You wanna bet your life it won't happen to you? If the MPL comes to fruition, you'd better be able to do that.
 
Stone Cold said:
So, if you are a FE, you are not on a flight deck soaking up knowledge??? Hmmm, news to me. What do I know, I've never sat in an airline cockpit, so if you are the all-knowing and say so, then it must be.

Anybody that did the FE route think it helped you in the experience department? I mean, PCL, ATN, whatever says it's not flight experience...
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There were a lot of PFEs at ATI that did the in house upgrade program. Some had 6-7k hours as a PFE on the DC8, I think the washout rate was close to 50%, that doesn't include the few that had IOE that lasted until they went back to recurrent, went through the "program" multiple times, etc.
 
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