I'm getting a little bit discouraged

[captainphil]

I really want to be an airline pilot, that is my ultimate goal. But all I hear is that the pay sucks when you start and you are at poverty level when you are responsible for the safety of many passengers and a very expensive piece of machinery, not to mention the training to get their costs more than the salary you will make for the regionals. Also even when you get to the majors I continuously hear problems about how they doubled the pilots amount of working hours to compensate for pay cuts. Cut pay? For crying out loud that is ridiculous when these guys who are supposed to be professionals already aren't making 6 figures if they haven't had a great amount of flight time , experience ,etc. Oh yeah, and not to mention I heard that you don't get paid to preflight, you only get paid for the time the wheels leave the ground to the time the wheels touch down ( someone correct me if i'm wrong), not to mention you may have delays, and you can be on the ground for some time. I am so discouraged by what I continuously hear but I still want to continue my dream, for those of you in the airline industry, is it really as bad as everyone makes it sound? I mean as a future professional, I would like to be paid like a professional and have a house to live in , like a professional, or like anyone should.

 

[captainphil]

oh yeah, and a pension would be a nice thing to have when I retire :banghead:

 

[TXaviator]

pipe dream.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I really want to be an airline pilot, that is my ultimate goal.

A very worthy goal, but not exactly the right country to be doing it in... if you could somehow get a citizenship to an EU country they still pay very well.

But all I hear is that the pay sucks when you start and you are at poverty level when you are responsible for the safety of many passengers and a very expensive piece of machinery, not to mention the training to get their costs more than the salary you will make for the regionals.

The payscales on APC aren't lying.... $20/hr * 900 hours per year is a base salary you can expect... of course, you may be eligible for per diem, only if you have a schedule, or if you're used on reserve. I have made less than $50 in per diem in consecutive months. It is $1.40 per hour from check-in to check-out.

Also even when you get to the majors I continuously hear problems about how they doubled the pilots amount of working hours to compensate for pay cuts. Cut pay? For crying out loud that is ridiculous when these guys who are supposed to be professionals already aren't making 6 figures if they haven't had a great amount of flight time , experience ,etc.

Can't really speak for the majors, but their contracts are shells of what they were prior to September 11th.... but I'm sure that it just helped move the wheels a little bit faster in the direction of scope going down the crapper.

Oh yeah, and not to mention I heard that you don't get paid to preflight, you only get paid for the time the wheels leave the ground to the time the wheels touch down ( someone correct me if i'm wrong), not to mention you may have delays, and you can be on the ground for some time.

My company pays from door close/brake release through brake set/door open. Yes, all the other time is essentially free... unless you count the generous per diem you're getting.

I am so discouraged by what I continuously hear but I still want to continue my dream, for those of you in the airline industry, is it really as bad as everyone makes it sound? I mean as a future professional, I would like to be paid like a professional and have a house to live in , like a professional, or like anyone should.

It is really "that bad". Then again, I work at the #1 bottom feeding regional in the United States, Pinnacle Airlines. No contract (in negotiations for 1495 days and counting), no travel benefits, a negative-reinforcement environment, etc. etc. Oh and our flight attendants are either, a) old hags, b) ghetto, or c) gay (not that there's anything wrong with that, I just like a nice pair of jugs under a decent face with no adams apple once in a while). We affectionately call that, here, the "Three G's" for Gays Ghettos and Grannies.

oh yeah, and a pension would be a nice thing to have when I retire :banghead:

401(k)..... we get 25% of the first 5% of our salary vested from the company. How generous. Enjoy!

 

[Tld]

Ok, so I'm not an airline pilot, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much, but I have to ask, why do you want to fly? In my relatively short time as a pilot and working in the aviation industry I have found that if you dont fly because you love it, I think you're going to find a lot of dissapointment.

I'm not trying to sound patronizing, but of course there are parts of flying that suck. But that's the same in any career. (Just ask a first year intern with $150k of med school debt). It's all about weighing the benefits against the disadvantages, and it's different for everyone. The question is, how do they weigh for you? Is walking around an airplane in the freezing cold and dark so that you can watch the sunrise over the mountains worth not getting paid for the walkaround? I know you say in your thread title that you are getting a bit discouraged...don't be, if it's what you love to do, it's what you love to do, the end.

 

[High_Alpha]

...why do you want to fly? In my relatively short time as a pilot and working in the aviation industry I have found that if you dont fly because you love it, I think you're going to find a lot of dissapointment.

:yeahthat:

I was going to say pretty much that. Definitely don't be a pilot if your motivation is a career, money, prestige, house, etc. But "IF" (and only you can make the decision) the satisfaction of flying airplanes, with whatever mechanical, personal, aesthetic or whatever other aspects appeal to you, are worth the sacrifices that go along with it, well...

 

[SeanD]

If it was as bad as everyone makes it sound they would be hiring right now.

 

[n57flyguy]

dead horse, beaten. again

 

[Murdoughnut]

For crying out loud that is ridiculous when these guys who are supposed to be professionals already aren't making 6 figures if they haven't had a great amount of flight time , experience ,etc.

They aren't making 6-figures because despite all the things you just pointed out, there are still tens of thousands of pilots willing to do the job.

And there are plenty of professionals in other fields with just as much invested in training that do not make 6-figures. My ex-girlfriend has a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology and works as a research oncologist, trying to rid the world of breast cancer ... and she makes $35k a year.

Personally, I don't think pilots were ever worth $250k a year ... but they're sure as hell worth more than $20k.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I'm not an airline pilot anymore so my thoughts may neither be appropriate or desired... but here they are.

Ask yourself why you want to be an airline pilot. There are dozens of flying jobs in aviation, some of which may include some of the attributes you are looking for in a profession.

I am not going to be one of those people who says, "Do it because you LOVE it..."

Whatever.

Whatever combination of fate, luck, etc has resulted in you being at this decision point in your life is irrelevant. Here you are.

Now it sounds as if your primary concerns are regarding compensation. You want to be well paid, and want to make certain that when you're on the clock you are being compensated for it. I think that those are both perfectly reasonable expectations.

As with most jobs though, you may not be able to simply walk into a six figure position. You may have to take some less desirable positions in order to build your own qualifications and experience.

Once you do, there are many flying positions where you can be well paid AND paid for every second of every day. As an example, in my current job as a corporate pilot I am on salary. So it does not matter if I have a really slow month or a really busy month. I'm paid the same regardless. It doesn't matter if my flight is canceled or delayed. I'm paid for preflights, briefings, postflights... you name it. There are pros and cons to that of course.

My point is this. At this point in your professional development, why handcuff yourself to an airline pilot career? Broaden your horizons and look at the many and varied opportunities that exist within aviation. Consider fractionals, consider corporate flight departments for Fortune 500 companies, consider arial photography, firefighting, survey, flying freight in a 747 (That's for you Polar!) ... you name it.

Being an airline pilot used to be a terrific career. And for some, for pilots like Doug who have made all of the right decisions and been favored with a little good fortune along the way, it's still a good profession. But for many of us, we will spend our lives in the aeronautical equivalent of the minor leagues and never be "called up to the majors". (Nascar fans, insert "truck series")

Best of luck

 

[Murdoughnut]

I'm not an airline pilot anymore so my thoughts may neither be appropriate or desired... but here they are.

Ask yourself why you want to be an airline pilot. There are dozens of flying jobs in aviation, some of which may include some of the attributes you are looking for in a profession.

I am not going to be one of those people who says, "Do it because you LOVE it..."

Whatever.

Whatever combination of fate, luck, etc has resulted in you being at this decision point in your life is irrelevant. Here you are.

Now it sounds as if your primary concerns are regarding compensation. You want to be well paid, and want to make certain that when you're on the clock you are being compensated for it. I think that those are both perfectly reasonable expectations.

As with most jobs though, you may not be able to simply walk into a six figure position. You may have to take some less desirable positions in order to build your own qualifications and experience.

Once you do, there are many flying positions where you can be well paid AND paid for every second of every day. As an example, in my current job as a corporate pilot I am on salary. So it does not matter if I have a really slow month or a really busy month. I'm paid the same regardless. It doesn't matter if my flight is canceled or delayed. I'm paid for preflights, briefings, postflights... you name it. There are pros and cons to that of course.

My point is this. At this point in your professional development, why handcuff yourself to an airline pilot career? Broaden your horizons and look at the many and varied opportunities that exist within aviation. Consider fractionals, consider corporate flight departments for Fortune 500 companies, consider arial photography, firefighting, survey, flying freight in a 747 (That's for you Polar!) ... you name it.

Being an airline pilot used to be a terrific career. And for some, for pilots like Doug who have made all of the right decisions and been favored with a little good fortune along the way, it's still a good profession. But for many of us, we will spend our lives in the aeronautical equivalent of the minor leagues and never be "called up to the majors". (Nascar fans, insert "truck series")

Best of luck

The most interesting (and discouraging) thing about the airlines is that it's the only profession I know of where leaving one jobs practically robs you of your employable capital for the next. It's not like when I leave my job as a Senior Analyst and take a job elsewhere that I'll have to start at a Junior Analyst position (with the associated pay).

That seems to be what drove most of my friends out of 121 flying ... my buddy who was with Indy said that after several years in the right seat, he just couldn't start at the bottom somewhere else.

 

[TheresaPilot]

dead hoarse, beaten. again

I was just thinking... Wasn't there a thread exactly like this one about a week ago?? :banghead:

 

[ZapBrannigan]

it's the only profession I know of where leaving one jobs practically robs you of your employable capital for the next.

This is an excellent point and one that pilots should not take lightly. Each time you move to another airline -- whether it be your choice or a choice made FOR you -- you start at the bottom.

Starting at the bottom gets old. The euphoria from getting a new job wears off quickly and you begin to realize that you're on the bottom with all of the privileges and benefits that go with that position.

It didn't bother me much the first few times I was furloughed. I was junior anyway so being junior at another company didn't seem like too big of a deal. When it really hit me hardest was after I had been furloughed from a major. I didn't feel right about accepting a J4J arrangement, so I accepted the only job I could find -- a copilot flying an RJ. During initial training I shared the classroom with very, very young pilots... some in their early 20s. Some had less than 1000 hours TT. Here I was with multiple type ratings, around 8000TT... and I realized that all of the time and effort that it took to build those qualifications meant nothing. I was worth $25 per hour, just like the 300 hour, 21 year old, wonderstick sitting next to me.

If that doesn't smack you in the face, then you're not looking at your own career critically enough.

 

[JWages]

This is an excellent point and one that pilots should not take lightly. Each time you move to another airline -- whether it be your choice or a choice made FOR you -- you start at the bottom.

Starting at the bottom gets old. The euphoria from getting a new job wears off quickly and you begin to realize that you're on the bottom with all of the privileges and benefits that go with that position.

It didn't bother me much the first few times I was furloughed. I was junior anyway so being junior at another company didn't seem like too big of a deal. When it really hit me hardest was after I had been furloughed from a major. I didn't feel right about accepting a J4J arrangement, so I accepted the only job I could find -- a copilot flying an RJ. During initial training I shared the classroom with very, very young pilots... some in their early 20s. Some had less than 1000 hours TT. Here I was with multiple type ratings, around 8000TT... and I realized that all of the time and effort that it took to build those qualifications meant nothing. I was worth $25 per hour, just like the 300 hour, 21 year old, wonderstick sitting next to me.

If that doesn't smack you in the face, then you're not looking at your own career critically enough.

What are the most typical reasons for having to change airlines?

 

[tonyw]

oh yeah, and a pension would be a nice thing to have when I retire :banghead:

If you want a pension, I suggest a government job. Pension plans are becoming a very rare thing in private sector companies.

More progressive companies replace pension plans with programs where they put three to four percent of your income into a savings plan in addition to giving you a 401k. Less progressive companies just say save on your own with the 401k.

if it's what you love to do, it's what you love to do, the end.

Love doesn't pay the bills. I've never seen in my life someone cash a check for love.

 

[C150J]

Airline pilots deserve more, especially in respect to work rules and duty limitations. That being said, my last pay stub of 2008 indicated that I made $47,800 on second year FO pay. I will make over $50,000 this year, and I fly 50-seat aircraft.

Qualifiers:
1) I live in base, so I can chose uncommutable schedules (which are sometimes worth more pay than commutable ones).
2) I am a lineholder, so almost $7,000 of my yearly income is per diem.
3) I work for a regional that has an OK pay scale (again, more is deserved).


Keep your chin up and, as Zap said, explore your options!

J.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Love doesn't pay the bills. I've never seen in my life someone cash a check for love.

Yeah, I agree. I have no problem saying that I don't love what I do. At best, I like it sometimes. But I'm good at it, and it pays well. And more than anything, I love my family. So I don't mind doing a job I don't love. I certainly wouldn't stay in a job I hate, though, because I don't have to.

What I focus on is the quality of life my job provides - and I do love that.

If you can find a job that you love which provides a great quality of life - then you hit the lottery my friend. But until the studios start replying to the porno scripts I keep sending them, I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

C150: Per-diem is not income. Period. Including that in salary calculations artificially inflates real dollars. Per-diem is money you spend to live while on the road -- food, sundries, etc.

Jwages: Furloughs obviously are among the first things to come to mind, but they're by no means the only ones. Ask the pilots who spent their careers at Braniff, Eastern, Midway, any of the PanAms. There is also personal choice -- pilots making the choice to change companies for a better commute, a better schedule, or a better contract. And then some not-so-good reasons to change airlines -- the possibility of a quick upgrade, a shiny new jet, etc.

 

[Trip7]

Airline pilots deserve more, especially in respect to work rules and duty limitations. That being said, my last pay stub of 2008 indicated that I made $47,800 on second year FO pay. I will make over $50,000 this year, and I fly 50-seat aircraft.

Qualifiers:
1) I live in base, so I can chose uncommutable schedules (which are sometimes worth more pay than commutable ones).
2) I am a lineholder, so almost $7,000 of my yearly income is per diem.
3) I work for a regional that has an OK pay scale (again, more is deserved).


Keep your chin up and, as Zap said, explore your options!

J.

Ditto the above plus:
2008 indicated that I made $21,800 on 1st yr pay as an FO on a 66-seat turboprop on reserve with a ridiculous amount of time off. I will make around $45,000 this year, including $5,000 from a 3 month stint at a 2nd job. I fly 70-76 seat aircraft.

Qualifiers:
1.) I live in base
2.) I work at a regional with a brand new contract and above average pay and work rules(more is deserved)
3.) I'm on reserve with plenty of time off during the down months to pick up a 2nd job.

Even though there are many aspects of the profession that need to be addressed, I'm very happy with what I do. Life gets easier once you hit 2nd year pay. (Can't imagine how much better life is like with a consistent line). This job has blessed me with amazing views, plenty of time off, and the ability to travel the world(most times in Business Class) and see visit family that I haven't seen in years before on a monthly basis. When you feel down that so many people are being negative, just remember, some of us are Living The Dream!

 

[Trip7]

C150: Per-diem is not income. Period. Including that in salary calculations artificially inflates real dollars. Per-diem is money you spend to live while on the road -- food, sundries, etc.

Respectfully disagree. If I'm paying my bills with per diem, its income. I don't spend $40 a day to live on the road. I budget my month on my take home guarantee. The more 3 or 4 day trips I get a month the more money I have left over every month.