Here's my story....advice requested

steuerlt

New Member
I've read a lot of posts like the one I'm about to write, but I feel mine's different.

ATP...I've got a 65k loan to attend ATP in Long Beach, CA. I have no choice at this time but to use the SM loan at 10% over 20 years, totaling out at $171,000. I knew it was 10%, but I was just too naive to put the numbers together. My start date is next month and seeing the loan paperwork for the first time AFTER you commit to a $2000 deposit, the loan numbers freaked me out.

So I called for another solution. They told me about the Gulfstream program. I get as low as a 3% loan which brings down my overall loan to $142,000 AND gets me 250 hours. If I would be willing to get the 1st loan, why wouldn't I want to get this loan instead. I save $30,000 and get another 250 hours. Seems like win/win to me. But then I talked to some friends who led me to this board. Apparently, participating in the Gulfstream program is like stabbing every other pilot in the back. I understand the discrepancy of it, I do, but do people realize that with someone taking a loan, they save almost $30,000 and get an extra 250 hours?

I am a veteran and I used the GI Bill to attend college and receive my degree. I didn't know I had 3 months left until I called today due to reading the post that someone here posted saying that ATP was approved for VA. I call VA and they tell me they're going to pay 60% of flight school. Done. I need this form and this form and this form. I call ATP and ask, hey, what do you need from me. They say, "Oh, you're going to Long Beach. The only school approved for VA is in Panama City, FL."

Meanwhile, I have my local friends, some who have gone through ATP, telling me to just do my work at the local FBO. I want the connections of ATP, and I realize that nothing's doing right now, but it has to mean something, right? An ATP "education" has to have some weight, regardless of economic times. The friends in the know say to stay here and get the training done locally. I can't get the money for that. No bank is willing to give me $30,000 (estimated minimum to complete everything at the FBO).

Do I take the 10% loan and move to Long Beach? Do I take the better loan but help to screw over the pilot career field? Or do I move to Panama City without furniture or knowing anyone and take a chance on a new opportunity, but get 60% of my flight school paid for? I'm getting no sleep right now. I'm almost sure I'm going to lose this $2000 deposit. I have to take responsibility, but ATP doesn't go over this information with folks, or at least me. They knew I was a vet but didn't once ask if I had VA benefits to use. You have to ask the right questions it seems.

Sorry for the wall-of-text. If you managed to read it all the way through...what would you do? And thanks for the replies.
 
You can take the better loan (with PNC I'm guessing) and then opt out of the Gulfstream program when it come to that time and return the rest of the loan. You loose $2,500 bucks if you do that but you will make it up in interest in only two years. ATP won't say it directly, but you CAN do it this way.

Edit: P.C. in the spring and early summer and 60% paid for with money you deserve for serving your country!! No brainer here. Don't worry about not knowing anyone. This should be an adventure anyway. Forget what I told you about opting out and use the VA.
 
Panama City, the ATP housing provided has all furniture (even kitchenware and appliances.) You might be able to wheedle them into waiving some or all of the deposit (or rather apply it to your Panama City start date) so long as they know you're going to attend the Panama City location, you'll have to talk to someone a couple notches above who answers the phones. It would be the appropriate thing to do, but thats not to say they WILL do it.

Frame it just like you said: 'You knew I was a veteran and you didn't even mention or offer your VA program where I could get the VA to pay for 60% of it? I understand you use the non-refundable deposits to ensure people follow through but do you understand how crappy customer service this is? I want to attend ATP but if you can't work with me here, even a little bit, it makes me worry about how things will go AFTER you have all my money.'
 
Yes the Panama City location does offer some VA approved courses, just make sure you know which courses those are.

Would hate to see you go there expecting 60% reimbursed and only get a fraction of that.

Do your homework on what programs are approved at their FL location. I also agree to try and get locations transferred. If they aren't willing to work with you on that, are you sure you want to be training with a business like that?

I too am a vet, and I say do what you can with the least amount of debt as possible. Use the benefits YOU'VE EARNED! just my .02
 
I love the responses, however, I failed to mention that I was going to do the self paced program. I'm guessing by the replies that I should do the face paced?
 
I love the responses, however, I failed to mention that I was going to do the self paced program. I'm guessing by the replies that I should do the face paced?

If you can manage taking the time off to do the fast paced program you may as well. The Panama location isn't too bad. Be ready to work hard. You will enjoy it though.
 
An ATP "education" has to have some weight, regardless of economic times.

Nobody cares where you do your flight training. As long as you have your pilot certs, a logbook of good time, and know how to interview, you're good to go. The only people that say it matters where you did your pilot training don't have much experience in professional aviation.

Regarding your financial predicament... If you can get 60% of your flight training paid for by moving, it's pretty much a no brainer. How many thousands of dollars are you going to save by doing this? $40k or more? How much in the long run? $90K? Do you really need to ask if that's worth doing?

Regarding the local FBO training, I'm not sure why you bring it up if you can't afford it. You can afford a 6 figure loan but can't afford to pay as you go at the FBO? You might want to ask yourself if you can afford the 6 figure loan then. Your first couple of jobs are very likely going to be somewhere around $25k/yr. Can you afford to be making a loan payment with that income? I know I sure couldn't, and I hear people that got those loans complaining about their money situation all the time.
 
Well, im glad i stumbled in here, and hope i can save you some grief. Im not here to bad mouth any "professional" flight school, i attended one, and wish that i didnt, and i wont even get started on gulfstream.


Take a step back and really look at the type of money you're looking at spending. 170K? Are you insane? 140K? still insane! Especially considering you're going to be making 25k/yr at best your first couple of years in. Dont let these schools BS you into thinking that you're going to hop on as an FO at a regional, put up with 1 year of bad pay, and then start raking the cash in after that. Thats simply not the case. American Eagle is running around 9 year upgrade times from FO to captain right now. First year in ur making less than 20k. 5 year FO's might break 30k. Does that sound like a good investment? If you got into this for the money, you're gonna end up hating your life.

Second, don't believe and of the crap any of these schools are spewing about their training holding more weight than anyone elses. To this day i still have never seen the difference between a 170k ATP license and a 10K mom n pop FBO license. Nobody cares where you got your ticket from, and anyone who tells you different is flat out lying. If you wanna go there just for "connections" go ahead and give me the 170k, i guarantee you I have more job connections than any goon over there.

If you're friends went there, and they're telling you to go to an FBO, doesn't that mean something? You dont need a g1000 skyhawk, or any other fancy crap. You dont even need a GPS for your instrument check ride. My advice is if you really wanna do this, go about it the cheapest way possible. Cheap doesn't always mean bad quality, i would wager you get better instruction at a small FBO any day than at a large pilot mill.

Im just begging you to not make a 170K mistake. if you really feel like blowing that much money, go to harvard and become a doctor. At least you get a cool pre-fix in front of your name.
 
Regarding the local FBO training, I'm not sure why you bring it up if you can't afford it. You can afford a 6 figure loan but can't afford to pay as you go at the FBO? You might want to ask yourself if you can afford the 6 figure loan then. Your first couple of jobs are very likely going to be somewhere around $25k/yr. Can you afford to be making a loan payment with that income? I know I sure couldn't, and I hear people that got those loans complaining about their money situation all the time.

To me, this is the most salient point in the thread.

As SteveC, Doug and myself have all professed in the past, debt is a dreamkiller.

Being approved for a loan does not mean you can afford it - I do not mean to cast aspersions - we really don't know all the details of your financial situation. The right thing to do is what's right for you. But for MOST people, incurring that level of debt and servicing it for years on end is simply not feasible given the income you're potentially looking at.

Remember - hope is not a strategy. You mentioned some government money, and I would be all over that like white on rice. I think you can get good training at ATP or at an FBO - the key to it will be your instructor, IMHO.
 
To me, this is the most salient point in the thread.

As SteveC, Doug and myself have all professed in the past, debt is a dreamkiller.

Being approved for a loan does not mean you can afford it - I do not mean to cast aspersions - we really don't know all the details of your financial situation. The right thing to do is what's right for you. But for MOST people, incurring that level of debt and servicing it for years on end is simply not feasible given the income you're potentially looking at.

Remember - hope is not a strategy. You mentioned some government money, and I would be all over that like white on rice. I think you can get good training at ATP or at an FBO - the key to it will be your instructor, IMHO.
:yeahthat:

I want the connections of ATP, and I realize that nothing's doing right now, but it has to mean something, right?
It means something to the school and it means something to the bank. I'm not sure it'll mean much beyond that. When you apply for a pilot job (or any job for that matter), the first thing that an employer is going to look at is what you did at your last job. Then they look at the job before that and then the job before that.

I think you're already well aware that it's very unlikely you will be able to leave ATP and walk right into a part 121 job. It ain't gonna happen. So you're going to work part 91 and 135 jobs first. The part 91 guys generally don't care where you got your certs and neither do the 135 guys for the most part. By the time you've got the mins for a 121 gig, they're going to care more about what you've been flying for the last couple years than where you got your certs.

If you can get gob'mnt to pay for 60% of your training you should probably look into that. But I would suspect that you could get the same certs/logbook hours for less than the 40% you'll still have to pay by doing it on your own at a mom and pop shop.
 
I would be in Panama City Florida.

The ATP name really means nothing, other than most of the guys who used their services now are in massive debt.
 
To me, this is the most salient point in the thread.

As SteveC, Doug and myself have all professed in the past, debt is a dreamkiller.

Being approved for a loan does not mean you can afford it - I do not mean to cast aspersions - we really don't know all the details of your financial situation. The right thing to do is what's right for you. But for MOST people, incurring that level of debt and servicing it for years on end is simply not feasible given the income you're potentially looking at.

Remember - hope is not a strategy. You mentioned some government money, and I would be all over that like white on rice. I think you can get good training at ATP or at an FBO - the key to it will be your instructor, IMHO.

Very well said.
 
:yeahthat:

It means something to the school and it means something to the bank. I'm not sure it'll mean much beyond that. When you apply for a pilot job (or any job for that matter), the first thing that an employer is going to look at is what you did at your last job. Then they look at the job before that and then the job before that.

I think you're already well aware that it's very unlikely you will be able to leave ATP and walk right into a part 121 job. It ain't gonna happen. So you're going to work part 91 and 135 jobs first. The part 91 guys generally don't care where you got your certs and neither do the 135 guys for the most part. By the time you've got the mins for a 121 gig, they're going to care more about what you've been flying for the last couple years than where you got your certs.

If you can get gob'mnt to pay for 60% of your training you should probably look into that. But I would suspect that you could get the same certs/logbook hours for less than the 40% you'll still have to pay by doing it on your own at a mom and pop shop.

:yeahthat:

Steuerlt,

Hey man Im a vet to (or about to be my last day in the army is friday) I already have a lot of my certs and only need to do my CFI. I have researched these VA approved schools a lot and what you have to remember is in order to be VA approved it has to be a part 141 course. The problem with these is their so much more expensive then just going down to the local FBO. For instance at fort benning where im stationed I priced my instrument at a local FBO (club) and I did my instrument for $4,000. The school right across the street was part 141 Va approved. They quoted 10,000. Now obviously i paid the club the 4000 and walked away from it with my cert. But unlike you I still have to finish my college education. So I wanted to save my gi bill by paying cash for my certs. I think you said you are finished with school so theres nothing for you to save with the GI bill.

Also check how much you have left. If you only have a few months of the bill left then their only going to pay you for 60% of the flight cost training for those few months or unitl your bill is out of money. So dont go down there thinking their going to pay 60% for everything. Once the gi bill runs dry thats it.

As with the loan I would definatley recommend doing what you have to do to get the interest rate lower. If your heck bent on doing the loan then it would be crazy for you to not take the lower rate then fanagle the system to drop the gulfstream program...just make sure you read the fine print...

matt
 
:yeahthat:

Steuerlt,

Hey man Im a vet to (or about to be my last day in the army is friday) I already have a lot of my certs and only need to do my CFI. I have researched these VA approved schools a lot and what you have to remember is in order to be VA approved it has to be a part 141 course. The problem with these is their so much more expensive then just going down to the local FBO. For instance at fort benning where im stationed I priced my instrument at a local FBO (club) and I did my instrument for $4,000. The school right across the street was part 141 Va approved. They quoted 10,000. Now obviously i paid the club the 4000 and walked away from it with my cert. But unlike you I still have to finish my college education. So I wanted to save my gi bill by paying cash for my certs. I think you said you are finished with school so theres nothing for you to save with the GI bill.

Also check how much you have left. If you only have a few months of the bill left then their only going to pay you for 60% of the flight cost training for those few months or unitl your bill is out of money. So dont go down there thinking their going to pay 60% for everything. Once the gi bill runs dry thats it.

As with the loan I would definatley recommend doing what you have to do to get the interest rate lower. If your heck bent on doing the loan then it would be crazy for you to not take the lower rate then fanagle the system to drop the gulfstream program...just make sure you read the fine print...

matt

You say you wanted to save your money to use it for traditional school. Just running some basic numbers (as I too am using my GI bill for flight training/degree) @$1300/mo for 36/mos you are entitled to 46,800 for education. You would have to spend $65520 on your Commercial/CFI ratings for you to exhaust the GI bill for flght training. Reaslistically it would only cost about 30k to go from Commercial to CFI meaning you would have only used 18k of your GI bill and still have 28,800 for a degree. I guess depending on which school you go to, this should be fairly easy to do without exhausting your GI bill.

<hijack over>
 
Just wanted to say thanks for all the replies and that I'm really taking what all of you said to heart. It's invaluable insight for me.
 
You say you wanted to save your money to use it for traditional school. Just running some basic numbers (as I too am using my GI bill for flight training/degree) @$1300/mo for 36/mos you are entitled to 46,800 for education. You would have to spend $65520 on your Commercial/CFI ratings for you to exhaust the GI bill for flght training. Reaslistically it would only cost about 30k to go from Commercial to CFI meaning you would have only used 18k of your GI bill and still have 28,800 for a degree. I guess depending on which school you go to, this should be fairly easy to do without exhausting your GI bill.

<hijack over>

Yes I could possibly have used my gi bill for instrument, commercial and cfi and still have had enough money for a traditional degree. However with the flight school options I had here it made no sence to use the gi bill because I would have had to spend the same amount of personal funds as i would have going to the 61 school. That said my situation was different than a lot because i already had the 250 hrs before I came in the army. So instead of having to pay a lot of money for the commercial I only had to pay for the ten hours of training for the checkride. So I paid cash for the ratings..which wasnt much and now I have full use of the GI bill. Another reason I didnt use the GI bill is because the new one is coming out and they are going to let us on the old switch to it. Rather than using my gi bill for flight training then switching it to the new one at their pro rated rate, I wanted to leave it alone so I could use the full benefit of the new bill...which is way better than the old one.

Matthew
 
Yes I could possibly have used my gi bill for instrument, commercial and cfi and still have had enough money for a traditional degree. However with the flight school options I had here it made no sence to use the gi bill because I would have had to spend the same amount of personal funds as i would have going to the 61 school. That said my situation was different than a lot because i already had the 250 hrs before I came in the army. So instead of having to pay a lot of money for the commercial I only had to pay for the ten hours of training for the checkride. So I paid cash for the ratings..which wasnt much and now I have full use of the GI bill. Another reason I didnt use the GI bill is because the new one is coming out and they are going to let us on the old switch to it. Rather than using my gi bill for flight training then switching it to the new one at their pro rated rate, I wanted to leave it alone so I could use the full benefit of the new bill...which is way better than the old one.

Matthew

Makes sense. And congrats on getting out Friday. Thank you for your service. I just got out of the Army at the end of February.

The new GI bill is awesome and I can't wait for it to come into affect. I'm not sure how they will pro-rate what I've used for flight training already, I guess I'll see what happens in August. I'm trying to get my flight training done before then, so I can go to school full time and hopefully instruct on the side (if I can get a CFI job somewhere). If I can't land the CFI slot right away, I'll just be going to school.
 
Makes sense. And congrats on getting out Friday. Thank you for your service. I just got out of the Army at the end of February.

The new GI bill is awesome and I can't wait for it to come into affect. I'm not sure how they will pro-rate what I've used for flight training already, I guess I'll see what happens in August. I'm trying to get my flight training done before then, so I can go to school full time and hopefully instruct on the side (if I can get a CFI job somewhere). If I can't land the CFI slot right away, I'll just be going to school.


Cool man congradulations on getting out and I cant wait. I have the same plan as you. Want to go to school full time and instruct while drawing that new bill. Im not sure what the process for switching will be. I know their going to allow it I just dont know at what rate they will switch it. Ive heard it goes off months. For example you get 36 months on the gi bill so if you use 6 months youll get 30 months on the new one. And just to let you know you can apply for the new bill on may1...I know it doesnt start till aug 1 but they told me to apply may 1 when i was outprocessing down here.

Thanks for your service to! After 7 and a half years its time to move on. Looking forward to college.

matt
 
Back
Top