Here's my story....advice requested

I don't know where these numbers are coming from of over 100k to go through ATP. Last I checked it was around 75k to go from zero to every rating except an ATP and you end up with 500tt with 250 of it turbine time. I believe that breaks down to about $150/hr!!!! Sounds like a real good deal to me. Plus, if you get your training done now, you will be ready to go when the airlines start hiring.
I went through ATP and was flying a jet for the airlines one year after my first solo. That seems better than just finishing an MEI after a years time.
 
I don't know where these numbers are coming from of over 100k to go through ATP. Last I checked it was around 75k to go from zero to every rating except an ATP and you end up with 500tt with 250 of it turbine time. .

Interest.

The program was a good bargain when it was 30K. Now, at 75K base (and god knows how much in interest), a useless CRJ "standards" program (and the affiliation with a scumbag outfit like GIA) I really don't have much I can say that is good about ATP.
 
I went through ATP and was flying a jet for the airlines one year after my first solo.


With all due respect, this scares me. I don't believe that this is any way that the aviation world should play out. It just seems to me like there should be a phase in a pilots life when he is learning real world, small plane, limited killing power, real stick commercial flying. I dont want to judge, but when I hear about places like pinnacle putting FOs in the right seat when they still have there temporary commercial licence it just dosent seem right for pilots or passengers.
As far as that goes, ATP makes it happen.
 
With all due respect, this scares me. I don't believe that this is any way that the aviation world should play out. It just seems to me like there should be a phase in a pilots life when he is learning real world, small plane, limited killing power, real stick commercial flying. I dont want to judge, but when I hear about places like pinnacle putting FOs in the right seat when they still have there temporary commercial licence it just dosent seem right for pilots or passengers.
As far as that goes, ATP makes it happen.

Id have to disagree with you. GA flying is a completly different world than airline flying. For instance, if youve never flown or studied a CRJ, it doesnt matter whether you have 5000 hours or 300 hours its not really gonna make that much differance. Both pilots are gonna have to go through the same school to learn how to fly it and both will get the same training. The only differance is that 5000 hour pilot might upgrade to captain faster.

And honestly, if you show up at an airline with 5000 hours of Cessna 152 time, they are gonna laugh at you.

IMO all the people that whine and complain that 250 hour pilots are/were getting jobs, its because they are pissed off that they had to spend time instructing or just flying around for a couple years before they could get a job.

Also, please someone post an airline accident that was due to the copilot having less than 1000 hours of experiance.
 
I would be in Panama City Florida.

The ATP name really means nothing, other than most of the guys who used their services now are in massive debt.

No. . .but. . .the marketing means so much!

In the end, you (the OP) will live with whatever decision you make.

65k loan, what are the payments on that again?

$630 a month?

Are you friggin kidding me?

You're seriously thinking about dropping that type of coin on FLIGHT TRAINING?

Why not spend it on something that actually holds some sort of value out on the free market, perhaps a master degree? Or even a specialized training certificate (or a couple or dozen).

On the realization that the average salary for a regional pilot is going to be in the sub-$1600 range, I'd sure hate to watch a 1/3 of my salary evaporate instantly every month, and that's not including the other debt requirements you might have. Snap out of it.
 
Id have to disagree with you. GA flying is a completly different world than airline flying. For instance, if youve never flown or studied a CRJ, it doesnt matter whether you have 5000 hours or 300 hours its not really gonna make that much differance. Both pilots are gonna have to go through the same school to learn how to fly it and both will get the same training. The only differance is that 5000 hour pilot might upgrade to captain faster.
....

IMO all the people that whine and complain that 250 hour pilots are/were getting jobs, its because they are pissed off that they had to spend time instructing or just flying around for a couple years before they could get a job.

Also, please someone post an airline accident that was due to the copilot having less than 1000 hours of experiance. __________________
IBC Airways
Saab 340 FO

Before you get all angry note I'm not knocking your status as an FO but just pointing it out. Once you upgrade and find a 250 hour guy in your right seat come back and we'll have this conversation again.

The difference between somebody who has 300 hours in a 152 and somebody who has 5000 hours in a 152 is TREMENDOUS. I've told people time and time again, I have no problem teaching a new guy to the jet HOW TO FLY THE JET. It's a new airplane. It's slippery. It's fast and it's operating at altitudes they've never been to before. However, I really don't want to have to teach basic flying, radio and weather theory to a guy. That's the sort of stuff that you should learn when you are LEARNING HOW TO FLY.

The thinking is, a guy with 5000 hours (or even 1500 hours) in a 152 PROBABLY will have seen more stuff than a guy with 250 hours. Will he have seen it all? No, certainly not. Ask Seggy about the former ATA 757/AF1 guy he went through sim with. I bet that guy, even with 15,000+ hours STILL hasn't seen it all and is learning and seeing new stuff on the Q every day. However, you can be damn sure he's seen a lot.

And the argument about guys just being jealous that they didn't get hired at 250 hours and "had" to instruct for a while is a strawman.
 
Before you get all angry note I'm not knocking your status as an FO but just pointing it out. Once you upgrade and find a 250 hour guy in your right seat come back and we'll have this conversation again.

The difference between somebody who has 300 hours in a 152 and somebody who has 5000 hours in a 152 is TREMENDOUS. I've told people time and time again, I have no problem teaching a new guy to the jet HOW TO FLY THE JET. It's a new airplane. It's slippery. It's fast and it's operating at altitudes they've never been to before. However, I really don't want to have to teach basic flying, radio and weather theory to a guy. That's the sort of stuff that you should learn when you are LEARNING HOW TO FLY.

The thinking is, a guy with 5000 hours (or even 1500 hours) in a 152 PROBABLY will have seen more stuff than a guy with 250 hours. Will he have seen it all? No, certainly not. Ask Seggy about the former ATA 757/AF1 guy he went through sim with. I bet that guy, even with 15,000+ hours STILL hasn't seen it all and is learning and seeing new stuff on the Q every day. However, you can be damn sure he's seen a lot.

And the argument about guys just being jealous that they didn't get hired at 250 hours and "had" to instruct for a while is a strawman.

I am not angry, im just pointing out that you dont have to be a scholar of aviation with over 5000 hours to fly as an FO for an airline. And unless im mistaken you had to learn basic flying, weather theory and using the radios before you got that airline job. I doubt any airline would hire a guy who could not use the friggin radio... atleast any reputable airline.

I personally went from 250 hours and a seminole to flying a Saab and none of my captains have ever complained. No it wasnt easy, it was a huge step but that does not mean its somehow unsafe to have a 250 hour FO.

When I upgrade, I will remember that I was once a 250 hour FO and will try to help that new guy as much as I can. Sure ill be upset if he doesnt know basic things such as what you listed.

Why are some of you captains getting annoyed with low time pilots? If its because the ones your flying with dont know the basics then you have a right to be upset. But if its because they are just not used to flying bigger, faster, more complex planes at higher altitudes then come on, at one time you were new as well.
 
And unless im mistaken you had to learn basic flying, weather theory and using the radios before you got that airline job.

Once word got around that I was a meteorologist, I had a few 10-15 year RJ captains that made it a point to ask me an honest question in the hallway.

No shame, but let's be honest and humble for a moment - at least about weather theory - not much is really known by the average line pilot. At least not much more than what is required. Delving into the finer details of MCCs, Supercells, frontogenesis, tropical weather forecasting, convective temperatures, skew-t's, radar analysis, operational weather forecasting techniques is a bit more intense than knowing the 27 states of the sky or the three levels of clouds categorized by height or how to read a TAF or METAR.
 
$630 a month?

Are you friggin kidding me?

You're seriously thinking about dropping that type of coin on FLIGHT TRAINING?

I'm no advocate of flight training loans at all, but just pointing out that I spend roughly that, maybe a little less, on flight training and time building per month. I tend to go in couple-thousand-dollar-bursts, though. And it's certainly not 15-20 years worth of payments. But on a month-to-month basis it has averaged out that way before.

Delving into the finer details of MCCs, Supercells, frontogenesis, tropical weather forecasting, convective temperatures, skew-t's, radar analysis, operational weather forecasting techniques is a bit more intense than knowing the 27 states of the sky or the three levels of clouds categorized by height or how to read a TAF or METAR.

I have often wondered why there wasn't a weather forum on JC, and why you weren't involved in running it. I've learned quite a bit from you in my incessant stupid-weather-question threads where you've chimed in with good, solid information - both anecdotal AND pointing me toward sources where I could round out my own learning.
 
I have often wondered why there wasn't a weather forum on JC, and why you weren't involved in running it. I've learned quite a bit from you in my incessant stupid-weather-question threads where you've chimed in with good, solid information - both anecdotal AND pointing me toward sources where I could round out my own learning.

good call, i would say that wx is perpetually my weak point, as there is always so much more that i could learn.

also, 3 engine... I really dont understand your argument about having a 250 FO. It seems to me like every pilot knows they are better at 500, 1000 1500 hours, so much better in fact that the FAA lets them do other, more complex jobs. I havent flown a cheftian, but i can guarantee i would fly one better now then i would have with 600 hours, let alone 250. Really, if you are non-rev on your way home and the captian has a heart attack who do you want in the right seat?
 
I'm not talking about advanced weather theory. I don't know crap about weather. I'm talking about basic stuff like temp/dew point spreads and how to read a TAF.
 
good call, i would say that wx is perpetually my weak point, as there is always so much more that i could learn.

also, 3 engine... I really dont understand your argument about having a 250 FO. It seems to me like every pilot knows they are better at 500, 1000 1500 hours, so much better in fact that the FAA lets them do other, more complex jobs. I havent flown a cheftian, but i can guarantee i would fly one better now then i would have with 600 hours, let alone 250. Really, if you are non-rev on your way home and the captian has a heart attack who do you want in the right seat?

The FAA allows anyone with a commercial pilots license with appropriate ratings to act as an SIC for 121 and 135 (with the proper checks of course). The minimum hour requirements are for PIC's. And yes I would agree with you that I wouldnt want a 250 hour pilot as a PIC of an airliner, SIC is a different story.

If the captain has a heart attack, do you really think that new SIC is going to crash the plane simply because the captain is incapacitated. What airlines do you fly on? SIC's are trained to do more than just put the gear lever and flaps up, FO contrary to popular belief does not mean "Flap Operater". Most Captains/FO alternate legs, when I fly my leg it takeoff, fly the leg and land. Why would the captain having a heart attack suddenly prevent me from doing my job?

The checkride for a SIC type is nearly identical to a PIC type checkride as far as I know. Correct me if im wrong please.
 
I'm no advocate of flight training loans at all, but just pointing out that I spend roughly that, maybe a little less, on flight training and time building per month. I tend to go in couple-thousand-dollar-bursts, though. And it's certainly not 15-20 years worth of payments. But on a month-to-month basis it has averaged out that way before.

Well, that at least makes some amount of sense. Cash right? Save up, get to your goal, then spend it. Save up, get to your goal, spend. No debt, no loans, and most of all - no crazy ass interest on a 65k+ loan.

Smooth!

I have often wondered why there wasn't a weather forum on JC, and why you weren't involved in running it. I've learned quite a bit from you in my incessant stupid-weather-question threads where you've chimed in with good, solid information - both anecdotal AND pointing me toward sources where I could round out my own learning.

Make the suggestion and I'll happily do my part to bring my experience to the table. I also know of another meteorologist / also PP-SEL IA rated pilot I worked with over two years ago who lurks here. Both of us have a wide range of experience, we share our operational desert forecasting experience and usual US forecasting knowledge, and he has spent ample time up in Alaska dealing with the mess that that can be. Throw a dash of numerous other meteorological experience (climatological and forecasting) and I'm sure we could help out much like the Ask the Doctor forum.

good call, i would say that wx is perpetually my weak point, as there is always so much more that i could learn.

also, 3 engine... I really dont understand your argument about having a 250 FO. It seems to me like every pilot knows they are better at 500, 1000 1500 hours, so much better in fact that the FAA lets them do other, more complex jobs. I havent flown a cheftian, but i can guarantee i would fly one better now then i would have with 600 hours, let alone 250. Really, if you are non-rev on your way home and the captian has a heart attack who do you want in the right seat?

To the first sentence, like I mentioned to killbilly, make the recommendation to the owners of this fine establishment and see what they say.

To the bottom point - the bold portion.

One word: Standardization.

As far as I know, most - if not all - part 121 initial training programs required the student to complete a landing on their own, unassisted from the other crew member due to the risks of incapacitation.

That said, if a pilot can't complete that task in the sim with the automation available to them, they shouldn't be flying in the 121 environment with people in the back.

At ASA, we had to conduct a VFR landing with no automation except for the flight director while our other crew member (sim partner) acted dead, and the FD which was pretty useless unless you're more focused on messing with the MCP instead of flying the damn plane. Actually, now that I think about it, I can't really remember if the FD was allowed to be on or not. I know the instructor didn't care if we tuned the ILS in and put it in APP with the FD.
 
I see advice to buy a plane in hopes of saving money. This is definitely great advice, but I must offer caution derived from personal experience. GET A THOROUGH PREBUY INSPECTION.

A plane which has an engine that has not been overhauled within 12 years should have all log books heavily scrutinized (If it seems low time, chances are it has not been flown enough to keep it in good shape).

I do not want to derail this thread anymore than it needs, but my message is to consider buying a plane to save money with flight training, but look into all maintenance costs and resale value. :bandit:
 
i started a thread in the general catagory about our debate over FO's.


yeah, get a small loan for a great plane and use the gi money for an approved little mom and pop flight school to get you an instructor in it. learn your plane and love the life!:nana2::nana2::nana2::nana2:
 
Three pieces of advice:

As previously suggested, seriously consider buying your own plane, especially if you are going to fly intensely. Spend the time up front researching the right plane. The previous advice on a Pre-Buy is very sound. Partnerships, with the right person(s) will make it even cheaper. Create a budget for the fixed (tie down, insurance, loan payments, annual inspection) and variable (engine overhaul, maintenance and fuel) costs.

Find a good instructor that you can work with.

After going to the local FBO, cruise your local airport and look for open hangar doors. There are a lot of older aviators around who would love nothing more than direct you to a local buying or training opportunity.

One last bit: enjoy the voyage.
 
IMO all the people that whine and complain that 250 hour pilots are/were getting jobs, its because they are pissed off that they had to spend time instructing or just flying around for a couple years before they could get a job.

I've read several threads about this on here and it sounds like your assessment is the most accurate.

I'm trying to decide which way to go here. I'm currently at ATP, and I think the program is great (so far). I've got the PNC loan to go to GA in October, and was just directed to this site by some other people. They think that the GA program is the most evil program on earth, but no one says why..??

All people on here have said is that:

1) they're concerned at why someone would "waste" $25,000 to get flight experience when they can instruct and get paid for it. I don't understand why someone else's money is a concern to them? If someone has the $25,000 to spend on 250 Turbine hours (that's $100/hr in a B1900D), why is that a bad thing? If someone had $1,000,000 to spend on renting a G6 for 500 hours, would it still be an issue? I just don't understand this rationalization. And please, don't take this the wrong way, I would love to hear why this is of such concern to the majority of the people on this (and other GA) threads?

2) the majority of the dissidents of the GA (and ATP) programs are saying that people should just go to their local FBO, get their hours and training, and then go CFI somewhere for the extra hours. Why is it a requirement that anyone who wants to be an ATP needs to first be an instructor? Some people are just not cut out to be instructors, I know I'm not. Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but rather I am interested in hearing why people are of this mindset...

I'm not trying to make enemies here, but I have a real concern now about entering this field. Before I paid for trraining, I talked to two friends of mine that are FO's for the legacies. They were all for the ATP program and the GA program (for me). That's the main reason I went forward with this.

Flying an airliner has been a dream of mine since I was a child. However, I was told then that you had to join the military and have 20/20 vision. Recently I found out neither of those were true. I am 36 years old, and for the past 13 years have been working in IT project management. I was laid off last September and made a decision that I didn't want to spend the rest of my working life in that field. So I researched several new fields, including the police force, ATC, and airline pilot. Since being an airline pilot was always my dream, and I found out it is achievable, I went for it.

I find flying very peaceful and enjoyable. I also love travelling. I realize that flying for an airline is very political, but I spent my last 13 years in corporate America, and know how to deal with the politics of corporate America. My financial position is really no one else's business, so I'm not sure why anyone would care if I put myself into $150k of debt and only eand up earning $20k for the first 5 years? Or whether I paid everything in cash, am a millionaire already and am just entering the field for the love of flying?

Again, I'm not trying to make waves, but I really want to hear some solid reasons why this is a bad route for me? Maybe I need to rethink this and get a job as a greeter at WalMart?

:bandit:
 
However, I really don't want to have to teach basic flying, radio and weather theory to a guy. That's the sort of stuff that you should learn when you are LEARNING HOW TO FLY.

Gosh, I think I must be mildly retarded or something. Sorry for all these posts, but I don't understand the above quote.

A few posts back someone was saying how horrible ATP was (nevermind GA) and that people should just go to their local FBO for training and instruction. Then I see this quote where captains are upset (and rightfully so) that they are having to teach FO's the basics of basics.

I can attest that at ATP we learned basic flying, radio procedures, and basic weather theory very intensely. ATP has a very rigid course guideline and very intense and demanding curriculum (at least the PHX school does). Also, they supply you with every book you may need to supplement your knowledge, along with Computer Based Training and exams which are MANDATORY to pass with an 80% prior to you being signed off for your checkride.

When I checked into the local FBO training. There was no set curriculum (except for a pathetic outline that was required by the FAA), and they mentioned one book that you had to buy (the PHAK I think), and that was it. I think that ATP students will come out more knowledgeable than that local FBO student (at least in PHX).

Then, wouldn't it be nice (and I could be wrong), to be a captain with a semi-part 121 experienced FO after they interned at GA for 250 hours, than with someone who flew a CE172 for 3 years?

I'm just utterly confused here guys, please help me understand?!? :confused:
 
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