Here's my story....advice requested

[SoCalFlyer2]

Keep in mind these are variable loans. You really think the interest rates will stay this low (lowest in 40+ years) for the next 20 until you pay it off? Will you be able to make your payment when it doubles and your total interest goes through the roof?

ATP is a good school but what's the rush to get your ratings done so fast? When you are done you will not have enough time to land a 121 job (they are not hiring anyway) and 135 mins are 1200+ hours. At my flight school I feel fortunate to have a job right now. We get several pilots coming in / calling who have 5000+ hours just looking for a CFI gig to supplement their income if they are lucky enough to even have a job. Others are out on the street without even a CFI gig.

So you come out of school with a huge debt and no job. By the time you find a job your loans will be in repayment and you won't be able to afford the first year salary. As the economy improves your interest rate will rise along with your payments.

Keep your day job and work on your ratings at an FBO. Try to fly a couple times a week and stay current. When the hiring begins again it will take a while to get through the backlog of high time pilots currently on the streets. Not sure if we'll see 121 carriers hiring those with 250hours again.

And yes, PFT is looked down upon by most pilots. It's wrong and hurts our industry as a whole.

 

[IslandFlyer]

I love the responses, however, I failed to mention that I was going to do the self paced program. I'm guessing by the replies that I should do the face paced?

Keep in mind these are variable loans. You really think the interest rates will stay this low (lowest in 40+ years) for the next 20 until you pay it off? Will you be able to make your payment when it doubles and your total interest goes through the roof?

ATP is a good school but what's the rush to get your ratings done so fast? When you are done you will not have enough time to land a 121 job (they are not hiring anyway) and 135 mins are 1200+ hours. At my flight school I feel fortunate to have a job right now. We get several pilots coming in / calling who have 5000+ hours just looking for a CFI gig to supplement their income if they are lucky enough to even have a job. Others are out on the street without even a CFI gig.


So you come out of school with a huge debt and no job. By the time you find a job your loans will be in repayment and you won't be able to afford the first year salary. As the economy improves your interest rate will rise along with your payments.

Keep your day job and work on your ratings at an FBO. Try to fly a couple times a week and stay current. When the hiring begins again it will take a while to get through the backlog of high time pilots currently on the streets. Not sure if we'll see 121 carriers hiring those with 250hours again.

And yes, PFT is looked down upon by most pilots. It's wrong and hurts our industry as a whole.

I don't think the OP is rushing through it, he said the self paced program not the 90 day zero to hero program. Maybe he plans on working during the 10 month self-paced program?

 

[Douglas]

An ATP "education" has to have some weight, regardless of economic times.

I don't think it can't be stressed enough that ATP does not have anything over any other instructors. The quality of education that you will receive at any location will fall squarely on the shoulders of your instructor. They do have a nice website, but prestige in the industry? They have no more or less, because it is about the instructor that you *just so happen* to get and it's not the dollars spent, name, location or the airplane you fly.

Makes me want to break out the Tyler Durden,
"You are not a unique snow flake"

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

If anything an ATP instructor may be slightly less prepared than one who was trained at an FBO, if just because at most FBOs CFIs aren't trained too often so it is a bigger deal.

 

[Minuteman]

This is just my post-lunch stupor talking...

It is a totally rotten thing to do, but as a thought exercise, how much of that $171,000 loan obligation do you suppose a person would be relieved of by declaring bankruptcy after getting all their certificates? If my memory is correct, student loans are special-cased to be difficult to shed, aren't they?

In addition to being totally underhanded to enter a loan with the intention of defaulting, companies do sometimes consider a potential employee's credit history.

Pay-as-you go is what I recommend. At this point you'd just be paying extra to rush to get at the end of a long line for jobs.

 

[N826AW]

It's virtually impossible to shed student loans via BK. They will garnish your wages before they let you out.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

The burden for discharging student loans is an ability to show it would be a hardship on your family to pay it back so the larger the lone the easier it is to argue. Not a sure thing though and if you take on any debt you should be prepared to pay it back.

 

[DE727UPS]

Honestly, people. The day that ATP partnered with PFJ is that last day anyone should have considered the option. There is no price worth entering this biz PFJ. That's what the Gulfstream program is, pay for a job. Where did the ATP apologists go? Don't work yourself into debt to become a pilot via some sort of "program".

With all due respect. Don't consider a PFJ program as a viable way to enter this career.

 

[3green]

If you can try and get the $2000 back. If not, take it as a learning lesson. I'd rather lose $2000 than deal with the pain of having a $140K loan. Going to ATP shouldn't be a viable option at all. So what if you get to fly for gulfstream and get 250 extra hours? Those hours don't mean anything when everyone is hurting for a job. What you are going to have when you graduate is a $140K loan, no aviation most likely, and a +$400 a month payment. Still wanna play? Go to an FBO and go debt free. Your call, but you can't say you weren't warned. Good luck whatever your choice is.

 

[killbilly]

This is just my post-lunch stupor talking...

It is a totally rotten thing to do, but as a thought exercise, how much of that $171,000 loan obligation do you suppose a person would be relieved of by declaring bankruptcy after getting all their certificates? If my memory is correct, student loans are special-cased to be difficult to shed, aren't they?

In addition to being totally underhanded to enter a loan with the intention of defaulting, companies do sometimes consider a potential employee's credit history.

Pay-as-you go is what I recommend. At this point you'd just be paying extra to rush to get at the end of a long line for jobs.

I do not believe these pilot training loans fall under the "impossible to discharge student loan rule" that BK traditionally covers. Because these are not Federal loans into an accredited institution, they really come down on the side of personal loans or career training loans, but I don't think they're "Student Loans" in the according-to-Hoyle sense. I could be wrong though...

That said, taking out a loan with the intent to declare BK later is wholly unscrupulous and would show a tremendous lack of integrity. Not only is it totally rotten, but if intent could be proven it might even fall under fraud.

And, God help me, yes, I did think of it once in the past and rejected it for all of the rottenness it involves.

 

[fadec]

Nothing against ATP...I'd make the same comment if you were going to Riddle, Flight Safety or any other big $ school. DO NOT do it!!!! Unless you can write a check for it and remain debt free.

Listen to Dave Ramsey for a couple hours, he'll set you straight. Debt is dumb and cash is King!

Even if you give up that deposit just forget about it! 2g's is probably just a few months of interest.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I managed to get through ATP, a year and a half flight instructing, some time as SIC in 135 and first year regional co-pilot without any student loans. I do have almost 7,000$USD of credit card debt though that I am still paying down but at least its only at prime interest rate.

If I had a student loan I had to pay back too I am telling you that it would have been impossible. It was really kind of hard to manage it without any student loans.

 

[c172captain]

The only difference between ATP and the FBO route is that ATP offers the "umbrella" security that basically says that you'll get your ratings done with us no matter what. You're paying for a brand name that is completely useless. If you decide to go the FBO route you'll come out of it with more TT, about half the multi time (figure 100multi, which will still get you hired just about everywhere for an entry-level position) zero debt and a much better feeling about yourself. I decided not to go the ATP route and instead did the pay-as-you-go method through the FBO and in 12 months I went from PPL-MEI. It can be done and all it takes is a little self-motivation and persistence. If it means anything, PPL-MEI was done senior year of high school and still working 35hrs a week at a pizza place to pay for the flight training. YOU CAN DO IT. You are not in school (I'm assuming) and you can get a job on the side and pay for training as you go. You can still go to the airport everyday if you'd like and be done with everything at the same rate as the ATP self-paced program. I don't know what the rush is for the whole 90-day thing man, you're going to rush to wait in line, as said previously. If you really want the VA benefits then go to a small part 141 school and get it done there.

Just my .02 though I am biased towards the FBO route :crazy:

 

[3enginejock]

I dont know, I went to ATP and I dont regret it. Within a couple months I had a job in the industry making the same as any 1st year regional FO (im for a 135 charter freight/passanger company). There are jobs out there, some are hard to find and require you know people.

And no I didnt pay for my job.

 

[JaceTheAce'sDad]

It is a totally rotten thing to do, but as a thought exercise, how much of that $171,000 loan obligation do you suppose a person would be relieved of by declaring bankruptcy after getting all their certificates? If my memory is correct, student loans are special-cased to be difficult to shed, aren't they?

You are correct. Student loans are NOT discharged in a bankruptcy.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

EXCEPT if you can prove hardship. Which means that you have to show you would be unable to provide a minimum standard of living while repaying the loan. With something like $1,200/mo payment on these Sallie Mae monsters it wouldn't be hard at all.

$1,200/mo was almost what I netted every month as a 1st year regional FO if I didn't break guarantee.

 

[Douglas]

The only difference between ATP and the FBO route is that ATP offers the "umbrella" security that basically says that you'll get your ratings done with us no matter what.

I've been known to be dead wrong sometimes, but I thought that ATP kicked you out if you don't keep pace in the career program.

 

[N826AW]

I think you need to prove hardship beyond just being a first year FO. If the bank can prove that you can make your payments and still put some chicken on the George Foreman on 2nd year pay, you can expect to be payment free until your cushy 2nd year FO pay rate kicks in so they can start garnishing you.

 

[3enginejock]

I've been known to be dead wrong sometimes, but I thought that ATP kicked you out if you don't keep pace in the career program.

They wont kick you out unless you are seriously falling behind. If you study and atleast do the minimum you will finish. Ive heard CFI school is a little bit tougher but not by much.

I dont like the new PFJ thing eather but im pretty sure you can still do the original ACPP without the CRJ course for a bit cheaper.

 

[NOGUFFCHET]

I have no personal experience with ATP, so I cant speak for myself, but over the years here in the northwest just about everything i hear about ATP is a negative. From people saying that they pass people just because, to all of the talk here about the money being ridiculous. I did my training 'self paced' at small FBOs all over the country, which ever was the cheapest at the time, and it gave me a some good contacts all over the place, with at least a little experience in different areas that you wouldn't get from just a cross-country at your super-school.
I tell you though, and now after a few years getting paid to fly and getting my CFI I believe it that much more... buy a little plane for yourself. It may be different for the GI bill, which you should definitely take advantage of, but for the money and experience gained you can pick up a 150 or an old Taildragger for less than 20k, fly it for a couple hundred hours and sell it for just about the same price. just an idea.
As far as the loan goes, maybe my story will help put it in perspective. I started this out at 17, and with the help of my mom i only got myself into about 20,000 of my own debt, working as i went and paying for the CFI later out of pocket. That was more than 8 years ago and Im still not done paying it off, granted, Ive got the best loan terms ever (0% forever) and it hasn't been a huge rush. But everyone has been there, bringing in a small amount after putting in so much. be careful and have fun, and don't forget that its just numbers when its bearing down on you.