Here's my story....advice requested

[killbilly]

Brutus,

These are good questions - I would suggest not asking them defensively, though.

The main reason, simply, is that it matters.

I am glad that you have the resources that you do, however, you have to understand that most pilots do not.

I believe you mentioned the following:

My financial position is really no one else's business, so I'm not sure why anyone would care if I put myself into $150k of debt and only eand up earning $20k for the first 5 years? Or whether I paid everything in cash, am a millionaire already and am just entering the field for the love of flying?

In truth, no one really does care if it's something you can do. But a lot of people come here asking, with personal uncertainty, whether that's the right thing for them to do. Histrionic extremes from either side of the fence aside, the usual, resounding answer is "do what's right for you, but consider the long term realities of things like interest and compensation." And generally that advice comes from people who have already faced similar circumstances and made their choices, or, they've faced massive amounts of debt and can speak to the nuances that servicing that debt has on their lives. Hey, if you've got the dough and want to spend the money to train for a job, then that's your business. There may be resentment from others less fortunate, but that's just the way of the world. You don't have to defend that option to anyone.

My point is that you shouldn't take it personally, and you should still do what you want to do. Now - to this other point you made:

they're concerned at why someone would "waste" $25,000 to get flight experience when they can instruct and get paid for it. I don't understand why someone else's money is a concern to them? If someone has the $25,000 to spend on 250 Turbine hours (that's $100/hr in a B1900D), why is that a bad thing? If someone had $1,000,000 to spend on renting a G6 for 500 hours, would it still be an issue? I just don't understand this rationalization. And please, don't take this the wrong way, I would love to hear why this is of such concern to the majority of the people on this (and other GA) threads?

Yes, this, in particular, is an issue for a lot of people - I believe you're referring to a program like Gulfstream.

There are more pilots than jobs right now, and in a case like that, the FAA requires that pilot be in the right seat. Many more pilots have gone before you and earned their way into the qualifications for the job. The fact that someone with a lot more money can pay to sit in a seat that should be going to a paid, qualified pilot galls a lot of people.

It wouldn't be an issue if that pilot wasn't a required crewmember. But because the FAA requires a pilot - a working, certified, qualified pilot to be sitting in that seat, it stands to reason that the pilot should get paid for performing that work.

By paying to play, as it is, that pilot is demonstrating that all pilots can and should be paying for the opportunity to fly, instead of it being a profession where they can feed their families. How would you have felt if, as a well-compensated IT project manager, someone came in and said, "Yeah, Brutus is a good guy. But I'll PAY YOU what YOU'RE PAYING HIM to do his job."

How long do you think you'd last there?

I'm certainly not trying to start a fight here, or anything - and I'm glad you're asking the question...hopefully this gives you some answers. There are many others here who can also give you more depth than I can at this point.

 

[BrutusPHX]

There are more pilots than jobs right now, and in a case like that, the FAA requires that pilot be in the right seat. Many more pilots have gone before you and earned their way into the qualifications for the job. The fact that someone with a lot more money can pay to sit in a seat that should be going to a paid, qualified pilot galls a lot of people.

By paying to play, as it is, that pilot is demonstrating that all pilots can and should be paying for the opportunity to fly, instead of it being a profession where they can feed their families. How would you have felt if, as a well-compensated IT project manager, someone came in and said, "Yeah, Brutus is a good guy. But I'll PAY YOU what YOU'RE PAYING HIM to do his job."

How long do you think you'd last there?

I'm certainly not trying to start a fight here, or anything - and I'm glad you're asking the question...hopefully this gives you some answers. There are many others here who can also give you more depth than I can at this point.

Well, to be honest, something similar has happened in my old industry and in many other industries. It's called outsourcing to foreign countries, and is a political hot potato right now. Albeit, the people in India aren't paying for my old position, but they are being paid an eighth of what I got paid. So I understand that point. However, this country was built on capitalism and free enterprise (at least that's what I keep hearing the right wing extremists keep yelling) and because of that companies are always going to do what improves their bottom line.

It's unfortunately the way America works, and right now there are many more qualified workers (in all fields) than there are jobs in America. So we're all in the same boat.

And to clarify from before, I wasn't saying that I was inherently wealthy and paid for all my training from a trust fund. I'm just saying that if someone wants to take out a huge loan and burden themselves with debt, that's their decision. How many people bought houses or cars they couldn't afford? Americans love doing that!

But I appreciate that you hit on the real point here. Even though there is a lot of apparent "concern" in this thread for people not wastefully spending their money on flight training, the real point is that those that either couldn't afford it or were unable or unwilling to take out loans feel cheated by those who can now just walk in and "pay to play" as you put it.

Thank you for explaining that.

 

[3enginejock]

I've read several threads about this on here and it sounds like your assessment is the most accurate.

I'm trying to decide which way to go here. I'm currently at ATP, and I think the program is great (so far). I've got the PNC loan to go to GA in October, and was just directed to this site by some other people. They think that the GA program is the most evil program on earth, but no one says why..??

All people on here have said is that:

1) they're concerned at why someone would "waste" $25,000 to get flight experience when they can instruct and get paid for it. I don't understand why someone else's money is a concern to them? If someone has the $25,000 to spend on 250 Turbine hours (that's $100/hr in a B1900D), why is that a bad thing? If someone had $1,000,000 to spend on renting a G6 for 500 hours, would it still be an issue? I just don't understand this rationalization. And please, don't take this the wrong way, I would love to hear why this is of such concern to the majority of the people on this (and other GA) threads?

2) the majority of the dissidents of the GA (and ATP) programs are saying that people should just go to their local FBO, get their hours and training, and then go CFI somewhere for the extra hours. Why is it a requirement that anyone who wants to be an ATP needs to first be an instructor? Some people are just not cut out to be instructors, I know I'm not. Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but rather I am interested in hearing why people are of this mindset...

I'm not trying to make enemies here, but I have a real concern now about entering this field. Before I paid for trraining, I talked to two friends of mine that are FO's for the legacies. They were all for the ATP program and the GA program (for me). That's the main reason I went forward with this.

Flying an airliner has been a dream of mine since I was a child. However, I was told then that you had to join the military and have 20/20 vision. Recently I found out neither of those were true. I am 36 years old, and for the past 13 years have been working in IT project management. I was laid off last September and made a decision that I didn't want to spend the rest of my working life in that field. So I researched several new fields, including the police force, ATC, and airline pilot. Since being an airline pilot was always my dream, and I found out it is achievable, I went for it.

I find flying very peaceful and enjoyable. I also love travelling. I realize that flying for an airline is very political, but I spent my last 13 years in corporate America, and know how to deal with the politics of corporate America. My financial position is really no one else's business, so I'm not sure why anyone would care if I put myself into $150k of debt and only eand up earning $20k for the first 5 years? Or whether I paid everything in cash, am a millionaire already and am just entering the field for the love of flying?

Again, I'm not trying to make waves, but I really want to hear some solid reasons why this is a bad route for me? Maybe I need to rethink this and get a job as a greeter at WalMart?

:bandit:

The main issue with Gulfstream is that you pay to be an intern, what you do with your money is not any business of mine or anyone elses. But I would not pay for training just be an intern and make 6$ an hour.

Im not as gung ho against paying for training as the others are, hell Southwest makes you pay for your training technically, and so do quite a few other carriers. But they atleast pay you a decent wage. Gulfstream makes you pay and then pays you less than a part time worker at mcdonalds.

That said, im of the oppinion that if your in the seat your qualified to be there. The FAA would not sign off on you if they thought you werent.

 

[killbilly]

Just so we're on the same page, you should know that I, too, work in the IT industry. And we do maintain a cadre of developers in India. We also maintain one in Atlanta and another in Cali.

And to clarify from before, I wasn't saying that I was inherently wealthy and paid for all my training from a trust fund. I'm just saying that if someone wants to take out a huge loan and burden themselves with debt, that's their decision. How many people bought houses or cars they couldn't afford? Americans love doing that!

I think what you read may have been mis-represented. The overall, conventional wisdom has been, "It doesn't make sense to take out a large loan for a low-pay job. Do what you feel you must, but if you're seeking advice, this is the advice." Like I said in the earlier post, you will get histrionic extremes from both sides - that's just the nature of internet posting. But if you read the more rational answers, it's generally people like myself and SteveC who consistently tell people who ask for advice like this that it's a bad idea, in our collective opinions.

But I appreciate that you hit on the real point here. Even though there is a lot of apparent "concern" in this thread for people not wastefully spending their money on flight training, the real point is that those that either couldn't afford it or were unable or unwilling to take out loans feel cheated by those who can now just walk in and "pay to play" as you put it.

Brutus...look. The concern is genuine. The real point isn't about pay to play. The point is that there is a lot of experience here - some of it hard-earned, painfully - and passing a little of that around is done because people actually do care. I admit that the message sometimes gets lost in the delivery, which is why posts like this are painstakingly crafted.

We have been addressing two separate, distinct issues here. One was about debt-load, the other was about pay-for-job scenarios. We've covered debt-load, I think: short version - a lot of people ask about it, I and others generally advise restraint given the numbers.

Now - Pay For Job - Personally, I am against them - they have a deleterious effect on an industry which is already plagued by problems. Some of those problems have resulted in people getting killed. You asked why there was so much acrimony out there - and the main reason is guys who line up to do the job for fun while the rest are trying to make a living. This is a large part of the reason that I will not become an airline pilot, no matter how many hours I have in the logbook. I will not perform a job that does not compensate me or value me congruently with how I value myself. Period.

If you did a PFJ program, would that make you a bad person? No. Would it make you a bad pilot? Probably not. Would it destroy your career? Unlikely. Would the pay suck? Most definitely.

Would a lot of other pilots resent you for paying to do a job that a pilot should have been paid to do? Hell yes they would, and rightly so in my book.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I wish I had bought my own plane, got all my single ratings and then sold it. It's a risk though, if a major maintenance item popped you'd be screwed, potentially.

 

[surreal1221]

I wish I had gone to Gulfstream or Jet U and wasted a hell of a lot of money.

But I didn't. . .thankfully. . .

 

[milehighpilot08]

I would not advice ATP. I am a graduate from there and even though I made it through alright, many did not and they dont think twice to take ur money and kick you out at the check ride. You most likely will not get the multi engine time they post in their ads and you will sign that you maybe shorted time in their long ass agreement that no one reads. They do not care about their students or staff for that matter. ATP is in it for the money. Ask the instructor who is sueing them for having to fly broken planes...

 

[Captain_Bob]

Hi milehighpilot08,

Welcome to Jetcareers!

Don't forget that there's a few hundred more posts in the ATP forums that you can post your experience in.

Bob

 

[meyers9163]

Hi milehighpilot08,

Welcome to Jetcareers!

Don't forget that there's a few hundred more posts in the ATP forums that you can post your experience in.

Bob

I dont have a response to this one.... Except someone might need to introduce himself... And then continue to post about his experience after an into perhaps?

 

[wjmiller3]

I would not advice ATP. I am a graduate from there and even though I made it through alright, many did not and they dont think twice to take ur money and kick you out at the check ride. You most likely will not get the multi engine time they post in their ads and you will sign that you maybe shorted time in their long ass agreement that no one reads. They do not care about their students or staff for that matter. ATP is in it for the money. Ask the instructor who is sueing them for having to fly broken planes...

You are like a broken record that won't stop skipping. Maybe if someone gives you a swift kick you will jump to the next song..... You near Houston?

 

[flyingmaniac]

One of the things I noticed since being furloughed is that those people who got hired with 300 hours TT, and now are furloughed, won't be able to find another flying job without paying for it.

It took some of us at ASA a year until we were furloughed. Now throughout that year I accumulated around 270 hours additional time. Most of us accumulated around the same hours. So, if you were hired with 300 hours and logged 270 within that year, all you have now is 570 hours and now furloughed.

Not many operators are hiring people with those low minimums anymore. So it is worth it to at least TRY and instruct or get your CFI license to build knowledge and hours, until the airlines hire again.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Hey there flyingmaniac,

I can see your point to some degree. That is certainly a decent argument to continue to instruct. However, I'd like to approach it from a different angle if I could...

Lets take your scenario of a pilot (Pilot 1) who got hired with 300TT and then was furloughed with 570TT after a year. If that pilot can't find another 121 or 135 gig while on furlough... he himself can instruct to continue to build his TT.

Now... let's take another pilot (Pilot 2) on the same timeline who decides to instruct at 300TT and bypass a class date that he interviewed for at ASA. Now... after that same year let's just say that he has @ 600 hours more TT (Avg 50hrs/mo) for a total of 900TT. How would these two compare?

Pilot 1

• Has a seniority number at an airline and will be called back at some point in time.
• Has the potential of getting hired at another regional carrier that his union's furlough committee may have negotiated a preferential interview session with.
• Has a combination of Piston and Turbine time.
• Can still continue to instruct while on furlough to build his/her TT. A perspective student loves to hear that his/her instructor flew for the "airlines".
• Let's say it takes 1 year to get recalled... again using the average of 50hrs/mo, Pilot 1 can have 1170TT of which a large chunk of that is Multi-Turbine.
• Upon recall, he will be well in front of those that waited it out to build their TT instructing which in turn equals better schedules, QOL, and quicker upgrade.

Pilot 2

• Has no seniority number and will have to wait until all furloughs are back in order for him to get hired... or wait until another carrier starts to hire.
• Will have no turbine experience, and waiting the same extra year to get hired after the recalls are back... Pilot 2 could have @ 1500TT & 0 Multi-Turbine.
• While Pilot 2 is now in a good position to get hired at an airline with a decent TT... when you compare him to Pilot 1 there could easily be hundreds of numbers of seniority in between the two.

Just a different point of view, with the disclaimer that I have nothing against instructing to build experience before going to an airline and it most certainly may be preferred... but I'd hazard to guess that just about anyone with 300TT who interviews and is offered an FO position for an airline that they want to work for... will most likely take the job.

Of course there's always the risk in this business... bankruptcy, furlough, downgrades, etc. But there's also a risk of going the other route too.

Bob

 

[GlenA]

Bob, that argument made sense a year ago, but with the economy the way it is, even CFI's can't find jobs now. I guess what people are saying, why race to the bottom? Take the time to do this with less debt while the airlines (and everyone else) are not hiring. I'm a product of both the FBO's and ATP, and I liked ATP a lot, and it made sense for the reasons I went (finished the military, didn't have a new career yet, figured get the rest of my ratings quickly), but the idea that with these extra 250 hours of turbine time that they paid for, they are going to jump the line of pilots waiting for jobs is just straight up misleading. They are going to go through with that "internship" then wind up exactly where the rest of us are, instructing if we are lucky.

 

[NolePilot]

but the idea that with these extra 250 hours of turbine time that they paid for, they are going to jump the line of pilots waiting for jobs is just straight up misleading.

I think in no way Bob’s post was referring to Gulfstream…. I think you need to re-read it. He was talking about someone who has already worked for an airline one that I would like to work for ASA.

 

[GlenA]

I think in no way Bob’s post was referring to Gulfstream…. I think you need to re-read it. He was talking about someone who has already worked for an airline on that I would like to work for ASA.

whoops, yep you're right. My apologies to Bob

 

[matt152]

Pilot 1 probably opted out of CFI school at ATP. His only chance is to get recalled or go to another regional. Or get the CFIs now.

 

[meyers9163]

I think in no way Bob’s post was referring to Gulfstream…. I think you need to re-read it. He was talking about someone who has already worked for an airline one that I would like to work for ASA.

However HIS point is one should still not HURRY right now. What's the POINT. He did get the Gulfstream thing wrong, but anyone who OPTS out of a CFI right now is foolish. No and, ifs or buts about it.

 

[meyers9163]

Pilot 1 probably opted out of CFI school at ATP. His only chance is to get recalled or go to another regional. Or get the CFIs now.

DING DING DING, as did many and we will see how it all works out for them. Even a CFI gig is hard to find right now.... Guess there's always, "Would you like fries with that?" In all seriousness this shows why one NEEDS to get what they pay for. I dont see any regionals hiring for well over a year. Then I can only imagine what the mins are going to be and how many guys who are ATPs in type and SICs in type will be applying for those few jobs.

 

[RS1]

I've read a lot of posts like the one I'm about to write, but I feel mine's different.

ATP...I've got a 65k loan to attend ATP in Long Beach, CA. I have no choice at this time but to use the SM loan at 10% over 20 years, totaling out at $171,000. I knew it was 10%, but I was just too naive to put the numbers together. My start date is next month and seeing the loan paperwork for the first time AFTER you commit to a $2000 deposit, the loan numbers freaked me out.

So I called for another solution. They told me about the Gulfstream program. I get as low as a 3% loan which brings down my overall loan to $142,000 AND gets me 250 hours. If I would be willing to get the 1st loan, why wouldn't I want to get this loan instead. I save $30,000 and get another 250 hours. Seems like win/win to me. But then I talked to some friends who led me to this board. Apparently, participating in the Gulfstream program is like stabbing every other pilot in the back. I understand the discrepancy of it, I do, but do people realize that with someone taking a loan, they save almost $30,000 and get an extra 250 hours?

I am a veteran and I used the GI Bill to attend college and receive my degree. I didn't know I had 3 months left until I called today due to reading the post that someone here posted saying that ATP was approved for VA. I call VA and they tell me they're going to pay 60% of flight school. Done. I need this form and this form and this form. I call ATP and ask, hey, what do you need from me. They say, "Oh, you're going to Long Beach. The only school approved for VA is in Panama City, FL."

Meanwhile, I have my local friends, some who have gone through ATP, telling me to just do my work at the local FBO. I want the connections of ATP, and I realize that nothing's doing right now, but it has to mean something, right? An ATP "education" has to have some weight, regardless of economic times. The friends in the know say to stay here and get the training done locally. I can't get the money for that. No bank is willing to give me $30,000 (estimated minimum to complete everything at the FBO).

Do I take the 10% loan and move to Long Beach? Do I take the better loan but help to screw over the pilot career field? Or do I move to Panama City without furniture or knowing anyone and take a chance on a new opportunity, but get 60% of my flight school paid for? I'm getting no sleep right now. I'm almost sure I'm going to lose this $2000 deposit. I have to take responsibility, but ATP doesn't go over this information with folks, or at least me. They knew I was a vet but didn't once ask if I had VA benefits to use. You have to ask the right questions it seems.

Sorry for the wall-of-text. If you managed to read it all the way through...what would you do? And thanks for the replies.

Don't do it. 25 - 30 grand will get you all of your single engine ratings at my FBO.... From 0 to CFI... After that, just get your multi / multi CFI thru Ari-Ben or ATP... 3,000 dollars for 10 hrs multi and ratings... They have timebuild programs too for like 7.5 grand, and 100 multi hours... Think about it?

Don't buy into that jip off... this is why regional airlines don't pay anything.

U can have your 250 hours and ratings within 42 weeks if u do 6 hours a week at the FBO. 28 weeks if you do 9 hours a week... checkrides usually only take a week or 2 in advance to schedule...

Another note - many FBO's DO have FINANCING these days!

 

[NolePilot]

meyers9163

I completely agree with you! Last year when all my fellow students at atp went through the program said psshhhh I am going to opt out of CFI so i can get money back and work for the airlines!!! Those who did go to the airlines at 200 hours now only have a little bit more time than they started with and are now furloughed.. Due to some life issues at the completion of my program I had my mind set on instructing and now have 1000TT and 600ME.