Hawker 900XP down, 2/7/24

[Roger Roger]

Half my new hire class at a major ish airline was a solid decade younger than me and they all seemed like solid, smart people.

 

[mikecweb]

For a variety of messed up reasons, I get to interact with the new hires at a particular airline. I'm very concerned. I'm really not meaning to be an arrogant, condescending ass-hat. I just see what see. It's freaking scary.

Real pilots should NOT be trained by rote. Their job is not to flip the switches in the correct order for the correct amount of time. Their job is to be able to continue to fly the airplane while fixing the stuff that just broke. It's ALL automation these days. Right up until it's NOT. Only then do you really even need a pilot.

How do you "get to interact"?

 

[JEP]

How do you "get to interact"?

Perhaps in the form of a 'retreat'.... who knows,.

 

[guywhoflies]

If you want to feel scared about the newer generation of pilots, watch a little YouTube.

Person was flying IFR, iPad died, "couldn't fly an approach"
Influencer kept trying to fly a Bonanza like it had autothrust and got kilt dead.
Student pilot clearly never worked the radio without much coaching and gets the flight basically cancelled and told to taxi back to the gate.
The title of the video mentions "hilarious" but it's tremendously concerning because who the hell is instructing has been instructing this pilot!?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBb0r8aLOYM

That was hard to watch. Either the solo student pilot or the controller kept getting the tail number wrong. My money is on the girl that couldn't read back simple taxi instructions.

Not trying to sound like an ass, but I predict there will be a future youtube video of ATC trying to reach her (unsuccessfully) after she puts one in the dirt.

I had a student like that many moons ago. I had to have an uncomfortable conversation with her that being a pilot may not be a realistic goal for her. I felt awful crushing her dreams, but I may have saved her from getting herself way too deep into a block of Swiss cheese to get herself out of.

 

[MikeD]

The maneuver in its entirety shall be hand flown, autopilot is not permitted, and you are required to accomplish the maneuver in clean and dirty configurations.

The fact this even needs to be mentioned, is sad. Who would do this in any way other than hand flying?

Sorry, I'm out at stick shaker on a swept wing jet. I'm no test pilot. I got stick shaker a couple times by accident (speed brakes out and in a turn while clean). It gets your attention. That's as close to a stall as I need to get in a jet. Did somebody say alerion reversal? Didn't even do that is the sim.

A stall test? F that man. Hellll to the nah

Meh. It’s an airplane. Stall is fine if you know what to expect and be prepared for the what if’s. They’re not unknowns, they are very known reactions of the aircraft that can happen. Basic swept wing aero. Proper prep of knowing how to react, without overreacting, and having altitude AGL available, makes these a relative non-event.

 

[spbrian]

The fact this even needs to be mentioned, is sad. Who would do this in any way other than hand flying?

A previous hawker stall test accident had the pilot enter the stall with the autopilot engaged.

Stalls in the training/checkride can be entered with autopilot on with one all the way to disconnect, I could see a non thoughtful pilot not thinking and use the autopilot.

Shame

 

[MikeD]

A previous hawker stall test accident had the pilot enter the stall with the autopilot engaged.

Stalls in the training/checkride can be entered with autopilot on with one all the way to disconnect, I could see a non thoughtful pilot not thinking and use the autopilot.

Shame

Stall with A/P on in training makes sense, as it replicates normal regime where it would be encountered. But for a dedicated stall test, one would think it would be obvious to hand fly it, as the test is not normal ops, especially a post-MX test.

 

[KLB]

Stall with A/P on in training makes sense, as it replicates normal regime where it would be encountered. But for a dedicated stall test, one would think it would be obvious to hand fly it, as the test is not normal ops, especially a post-MX test.

Honestly, purposely entering a stall is not normal ops. In my opnion, this requirement is turning a line pilot into a test pilot...literally.

 

[SteveC]

Honestly, purposely entering a stall is not normal ops. In my opnion, this requirement is turning a line pilot into a test pilot...literally.

If I recall correctly, at my last shop we hired Hawker RTS stall tests done by pilots familiar with the specified tests rather than use line pilots. Too far outside our normal ops for comfort from a management viewpoint.

 

[KLB]

If I recall correctly, at my last shop we hired Hawker RTS stall tests done by pilots familiar with the specified tests rather than use line pilots. Too far outside our normal ops for comfort from a management viewpoint.

We have a maintenance/reposition flight line item in our F.R.A.T. at my shop. But I can't see something like a stall test being taken into account with it though. The penalty for it would be too low to be realistic if the company is serious about risk assessment.

 

[MikeD]

Honestly, purposely entering a stall is not normal ops. In my opnion, this requirement is turning a line pilot into a test pilot...literally.

You have to have some requisite training for it, indeed, as with any kind of maintenance check pilot, to understand what it is you are checking on and how to go about it safely, as well as any particular profiles involved. But one doesn't necessarily need to be a test pilot in the classic sense. It’s still an airplane, at the end of the day.

 

[🦈💜]

Half my new hire class at a major ish airline was a solid decade younger than me and they all seemed like solid, smart people.

The FOs I fly with at my regional, most of which have a class date with a major at this point, are pretty much universally fantastic. Career changers, kids, FAs moving to the other side of the door, and a lot of very good, very sharp women who finally fit the memo that it's actually, you know, ok to be a pilot.

Honestly, there's a lack of time in the trenches, but from my observation the quality is pretty darn high. The ones who have the toughest time, honestly, are the mil guys and RTPers, but you can tell they get it. (mostly)

The only thing that worries me is that they just haven't seen very much. But hell, that comes with time anyway.

 

[🦈💜]

sidebar: Seeing all these people jumping by me to various majors does make me feel pretty bitter at times, but knowing that most of them are at least good at the thing is some modest consolation, at least.

 

[KLB]

You have to have some requisite training for it, indeed, as with any kind of maintenance check pilot, to understand what it is you are checking on and how to go about it safely, as well as any particular profiles involved. But one doesn't necessarily need to be

The problem is these aren't mostly maintenance check pilots tasked with doing these types of checks. It's just regular line guys who to flight safety every six months that practice stalls with the autopilot on and take it as far as the horn/aural warning/shaker and recover.

As the industry has gotten tighter and tighter, the type of pilots that are currently flying hawkers are the lesser experienced or retired from the airline pilots due to the huge up-suck in the industry.

 

[Roger Roger]

The FOs I fly with at my regional, most of which have a class date with a major at this point, are pretty much universally fantastic. Career changers, kids, FAs moving to the other side of the door, and a lot of very good, very sharp women who finally fit the memo that it's actually, you know, ok to be a pilot.

Honestly, there's a lack of time in the trenches, but from my observation the quality is pretty darn high. The ones who have the toughest time, honestly, are the mil guys and RTPers, but you can tell they get it. (mostly)

The only thing that worries me is that they just haven't seen very much. But hell, that comes with time anyway.

Yep, the regional gals and guys in my class were mostly great to be around regardless of age. With the stereotypes of the hiring wave I was a little surprised to have 4 regional pilots around my age or older, it was definitely not just a bunch of 20-somethings. Certainly did have a couple whose resumes were CFI-Skywest/Horizon-Alaskan Airways but they were all mature, hard-working, and genuinely interested in excelling. It was a little funny chatting at times with some of them about trying to find aviation jobs post 2008 when they were barely in high school, but for this small sample size most of the negative stereotypes were definitely unearned.

 

[Roger Roger]

sidebar: Seeing all these people jumping by me to various majors does make me feel pretty bitter at times, but knowing that most of them are at least good at the thing is some modest consolation, at least.

So many people who were either the FNG seasonal pilots or my FOs at previous jobs are significantly senior to me at this place. Not the same feeling but in the same ballpark.

 

[Roger Roger]

The problem is these aren't mostly maintenance check pilots tasked with doing these types of checks. It's just regular line guys who to flight safety every six months that practice stalls with the autopilot on and take it as far as the horn/aural warning/shaker and recover.

As the industry has gotten tighter and tighter, the type of pilots that are currently flying hawkers are the lesser experienced or retired from the airline pilots due to the huge up-suck in the industry.

based on what I saw the last 5ish years going through FSIs etc I’m actually surprised the 91/135 accident rate hasn’t been worse.

 

[Roger Roger]

Also for all the noise that’s been made we still had 85% white dudes so….

 

[form810]

The fact this even needs to be mentioned, is sad. Who would do this in any way other than hand flying?





Meh. It’s an airplane. Stall is fine if you know what to expect and be prepared for the what if’s. They’re not unknowns, they are very known reactions of the aircraft that can happen. Basic swept wing aero. Proper prep of knowing how to react, without overreacting, and having altitude AGL available, makes these a relative non-event.

Perfect!

 

[NovemberEcho]

Person was flying IFR, iPad died, "couldn't fly an approach"

Person was not IFR rated