Hawker 900XP down, 2/7/24

What is one looking for? Leading edge (presumably slat?) lockout? Failure to deploy? Asymmetric deployment? Roll-off/heading change? And what do you take it to? Full stall? Rumble leading to a stall?

On the FCF profile for the F/A-18, we theoretically test this during a pull to the max approved AoA while in dirty configuration, but that never has any drama. The real test of the Leading Edge Flaps is the HDU lockout test, where you accel to about 500 knots, and do a level 7.5G turn at idle power and hold that until you reach 35 AoA/load limit to lift limit transition point. I've never had one go wrong, but I imagine it could be violent. However we have ejection seats......(which likely wouldn't be required even in that scenario)
 
///AMG said:
What is one looking for? Leading edge (presumably slat?) lockout? Failure to deploy? Asymmetric deployment? Roll-off/heading change? And what do you take it to? Full stall? Rumble leading to a stall?

On the FCF profile for the F/A-18, we theoretically test this during a pull to the max approved AoA while in dirty configuration, but that never has any drama. The real test of the Leading Edge Flaps is the HDU lockout test, where you accel to about 500 knots, and do a level 7.5G turn at idle power and hold that until you reach 35 AoA/load limit to lift limit transition point. I've never had one go wrong, but I imagine it could be violent. However we have ejection seats......(which likely wouldn't be required even in that scenario)
Click to expand...
IIRC the Honker has fixed leading edges, so you’re just testing behavior of the aircraft in the stall. Legacy Lears had similar rules but I only heard stories about going up with the bombardier test pilots to yank and bank, never got involved. The 45 had no such restrictions
 
///AMG said:
What is one looking for? Leading edge (presumably slat?) lockout? Failure to deploy? Asymmetric deployment? Roll-off/heading change? And what do you take it to? Full stall? Rumble leading to a stall?

On the FCF profile for the F/A-18, we theoretically test this during a pull to the max approved AoA while in dirty configuration, but that never has any drama. The real test of the Leading Edge Flaps is the HDU lockout test, where you accel to about 500 knots, and do a level 7.5G turn at idle power and hold that until you reach 35 AoA/load limit to lift limit transition point. I've never had one go wrong, but I imagine it could be violent. However we have ejection seats......(which likely wouldn't be required even in that scenario)
Click to expand...
On the pre-Bombardier Lears the wing cross section is very unforgiving and mishandling it caused a lot stall accidents. Part of maintaining them is ensuring that after the leading edge is disturbed in any manner the flight characteristics are verified by someone who has experience and training to ensure that the airplane will perform as advertised.
 
///AMG said:
What is one looking for? Leading edge (presumably slat?) lockout? Failure to deploy? Asymmetric deployment? Roll-off/heading change? And what do you take it to? Full stall? Rumble leading to a stall?

On the FCF profile for the F/A-18, we theoretically test this during a pull to the max approved AoA while in dirty configuration, but that never has any drama. The real test of the Leading Edge Flaps is the HDU lockout test, where you accel to about 500 knots, and do a level 7.5G turn at idle power and hold that until you reach 35 AoA/load limit to lift limit transition point. I've never had one go wrong, but I imagine it could be violent. However we have ejection seats......(which likely wouldn't be required even in that scenario)
Click to expand...

Been there, done this, but at this point it's been 8 years.

MX manual if I recall actually has the entirety of the procedure with information if I recall, don't hold me to this since it's been so long and well, been a tough 2 days and currently, I have beer....

You should be in VMC, and I read on another forum which sounds correct, 15K AGL. Airplane is set up clean, straight and level with a constant deceleration of 1knot/sec. Prior to maneuver you run the actual speeds that the stall should occur. During the maneuver, verify that the shaker and pusher occur prior to the stall.

The stall should have a gentle roll off, controllable with ailerons (you should be able to slow the roll) while breaking the stall with forward pressure. Any stall or wing roll off above the computed speed needs addressed, and there are instances of aileron snatch, aileron reversal or just aggressive rolling issues.

The maneuver in it's entirety shall be hand flown, autopilot is not permitted, and you are required to accomplish the maneuver in clean and dirty configurations.

If I recall correctly, I did 5 total and it's anytime a large portion of the leading edge is removed. I believe it's a 48 month item as the TKS lines are required to be inspected but again, hazy. No real rumble in the plane, there is some buffeting prior in the wings but not pronounced well. I only had one where the roll off was interesting, but forward pressure got the plane flying quickly with no real scary.

I was taught well, told to expect the worst from the plane run through the maneuver and never ever ever take anyone.
 
Sorry, I'm out at stick shaker on a swept wing jet. I'm no test pilot. I got stick shaker a couple times by accident (speed brakes out and in a turn while clean). It gets your attention. That's as close to a stall as I need to get in a jet. Did somebody say alerion reversal? Didn't even do that is the sim.
 
Inverted said:
Really bad upset recovery technique on that too. Not saying the startle factor would have made me do it any different but pulling though instead of rolling out after the stall recovery is crazy.
Click to expand...
Haha no argument there, I always thought it was startle factor too. The body language from the right seater grazing his hand makes me think that guy was basically saying ‘holy • man we are over speeding in a Split-S, don’t pull too hard.’ :oops:
 
This is reminiscent of the Mexican LearJet with some top political figures/staff that crashed into Mexico City. Following a 767 too closely, they hit wake and the plane went upside down. The pilots pilots did the classic pilot move: pulled back. Instead of just rolling it out to simple level flight, they pulled for the long way recovery. Never made it.

I saw the Mayday episode, and they featured a woman on the ground who saw the plane coming down, tried to run for it, and got badly burned (her face too).

The problem with the crash was unlike the nose hitting and making a crater, they were about level attitude as it hit the ground. So now it was basically a fuel-filled rocket wiping out things in its path.
 
spbrian said:
Been there, done this, but at this point it's been 8 years.

MX manual if I recall actually has the entirety of the procedure with information if I recall, don't hold me to this since it's been so long and well, been a tough 2 days and currently, I have beer....

You should be in VMC, and I read on another forum which sounds correct, 15K AGL. Airplane is set up clean, straight and level with a constant deceleration of 1knot/sec. Prior to maneuver you run the actual speeds that the stall should occur. During the maneuver, verify that the shaker and pusher occur prior to the stall.

The stall should have a gentle roll off, controllable with ailerons (you should be able to slow the roll) while breaking the stall with forward pressure. Any stall or wing roll off above the computed speed needs addressed, and there are instances of aileron snatch, aileron reversal or just aggressive rolling issues.

The maneuver in it's entirety shall be hand flown, autopilot is not permitted, and you are required to accomplish the maneuver in clean and dirty configurations.

If I recall correctly, I did 5 total and it's anytime a large portion of the leading edge is removed. I believe it's a 48 month item as the TKS lines are required to be inspected but again, hazy. No real rumble in the plane, there is some buffeting prior in the wings but not pronounced well. I only had one where the roll off was interesting, but forward pressure got the plane flying quickly with no real scary.

I was taught well, told to expect the worst from the plane run through the maneuver and never ever ever take anyone.
Click to expand...
This.
Add to that a limitation of acceptable roll of 20 deg which should be corrected by normal aileron application. Any aileron snatch prior to or during the stall is unacceptable. AND, in such an event the pilot should be prepared to to recover from an UNUSUAL ATTITUDE. The kicker is that the manual specifically states:

CAUTION: Pilots conducting stall checks should have PRIOR EXPERIENCE in performing stalls in the Hawker and MUST BE PREPARED for UNACCEPTABLE STALL BEHAVIOR at any point leading up to and throughout the maneuver.

UPRT in a level D sim is great for muscle memory, and education. But a sim can't simulate the real startle factor and physiological effects when recovering from an upset state. Especially when seconds matter and the first action taken determines the fate of the outcome. It would be best to supplement any Part 142 UPRT training with UPRT training in an airplane. Get comfortable with it.
 
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They built a few Lear 29s, where did they go? Nobody knows. That's not true, none of them ever entered civilian service but you shouldn't assume they didn't live out useful lives. They were immediately snatched up by people who'd rather fly around at 51,000 feet for hours on end and not have anyone ask any questions about it.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
This is reminiscent of the Mexican LearJet with some top political figures/staff that crashed into Mexico City. Following a 767 too closely, they hit wake and the plane went upside down. The pilots pilots did the classic pilot move: pulled back. Instead of just rolling it out to simple level flight, they pulled for the long way recovery. Never made it.

I saw the Mayday episode, and they featured a woman on the ground who saw the plane coming down, tried to run for it, and got badly burned (her face too).

The problem with the crash was unlike the nose hitting and making a crater, they were about level attitude as it hit the ground. So now it was basically a fuel-filled rocket wiping out things in its path.
Click to expand...
Our 91 department did upset prevention and recovery training down at Patty Wagstaff's' school this summer and that was an eye opener. They asked us if your doing your normal unusual attitudes exercise and you see the ground what is a normal pilots instinct, pull back of course. Well if your upside down that doesn't end well. They said multiple times don't worry it will most likely happen to you out there when we go flying. As were heading out I kept reminding myself not to pull back the first time but sure enough once upside down I went right ahead and pulled back. Every time after that it was no problem but I would not want to be experiencing that for the first time in anything with a jet engine. Highly recommend the training for anyone who has the opportunity.
 
5Right_5Left said:
Our 91 department did upset prevention and recovery training down at Patty Wagstaff's' school this summer and that was an eye opener. They asked us if your doing your normal unusual attitudes exercise and you see the ground what is a normal pilots instinct, pull back of course. Well if your upside down that doesn't end well. They said multiple times don't worry it will most likely happen to you out there when we go flying. As were heading out I kept reminding myself not to pull back the first time but sure enough once upside down I went right ahead and pulled back. Every time after that it was no problem but I would not want to be experiencing that for the first time in anything with a jet engine. Highly recommend the training for anyone who has the opportunity.
Click to expand...
Good for them putting you guys through that course!

(Hey, did I hear you’re now at the place where my old buddy Jerry was Chief Pilot? Flying with Adam?)
 
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