Gulfstream/PFJ/ATP

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wrxpilot said:
Amazing. Truly amazing there are people stupid enough for them to even consider creating this program. In this new era of tight credit, it will be interesting to see how many could even financially qualify for this.
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Amazing what you can achieve with the right marketing, flashy website, glossy promotional magazine and naive customers. When you first embark on the researching of flight schools/ how to be a pilot etc these are the kind of places you come accross (try any combination of flight training, school etc and ATP and Delta Conn etc are always the banner advert). Programme is fast track alright - to a miserable existance of repaying loans for what? Unfortunately some folks leave the research with the promise of dreams fulfilled -
 
What is better? Gulfstream or 250 hours of instructing??
They both suck. You need 1000+ Dual given and your ATP if you want to go anywhere.
250 dual given and 5$ will buy you a lot of things, but not a job.
After you are done with Gulfstream, you can stay on for another 250 hours for 5,000$ I think it is. Yeh I know some one who was furloughed by gulfstream, he was asking me for help to get an instructor job.
I hope most airlines look down in disgust at PFJ's
 
BillH said:
What is better? Gulfstream or 250 hours of instructing??
They both suck. You need 1000+ Dual given and your ATP if you want to go anywhere.
250 dual given and 5$ will buy you a lot of things, but not a job.
After you are done with Gulfstream, you can stay on for another 250 hours for 5,000$ I think it is. Yeh I know some one who was furloughed by gulfstream, he was asking me for help to get an instructor job.
I hope most airlines look down in disgust at PFJ's
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Well, you pay for 250hrs at GS and get paid for the 250hrs instructing (probably a swing of 30K - $25K costof the GS experience v's 5/7.5K earned for instructing) - once the 250 hrs instructing is up, chances are you will still be there, getting paid, to instruct, not looking for a job. And there is the small (priceless) matter of dignity and respect.
So, instructing.
 
I wonder if any of these guys actually think that they will be truly hired by Gulfstream after this? I wonder what response they would get if they asked about the furloughed pilots?
 
GlenA said:
I wonder if any of these guys actually think that they will be truly hired by Gulfstream after this? I wonder what response they would get if they asked about the furloughed pilots?
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. . .and that's the other point. You just paid for 200+ hours turbine time, and that' it. You could have instructed and made money. I kinda wonder. . .how much is it for PIC 1900 time?
 
MFT1Air said:
. . .and that's the other point. You just paid for 200+ hours turbine time, and that' it. You could have instructed and made money. I kinda wonder. . .how much is it for PIC 1900 time?
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If you are going to go the PFJ route, you are better off going to Eagle Jet, at least with them, there is a good chance you will get hired onto the company your flying for.
 
Actually, my thought was more in line with, if I had $26K to throw away, how many hours of PIC time in a 1900 would I get for that much money. Seems to me that if I were to build hours and pay for it, there are some opportunities to PIC a King Air or Beech.
 
unclenobby said:
Amazing what you can achieve with the right marketing, flashy website, glossy promotional magazine and naive customers. When you first embark on the researching of flight schools/ how to be a pilot etc these are the kind of places you come accross (try any combination of flight training, school etc and ATP and Delta Conn etc are always the banner advert). Programme is fast track alright - to a miserable existance of repaying loans for what? Unfortunately some folks leave the research with the promise of dreams fulfilled -
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You're right its all the marketing. Probably has nothing to do with all the folks that have succeeded through ATP.

What happens to most people that begin their career at an FBO?

What happens to most people that begin their career with ATP?

When comparing the time it takes start to the airline job for people that are successful with the FBO route to the people that are successful at ATP, pretty sure the average ATP guy is at an airline before the FBO guy has finished his training.

Yeah you're right its the brochures.

Isn't the inconsistent training provided at FBOs the reason airlines prefer to hire military trained pilots over civilian trained pilots?
 
PaulR said:
Moleman,

I think most are trying to say its NOT OK to place an "intern" in the cockpit of an airliner with paying passengers.

Its NOT ok to have a paying student placed in a cockpit that should be operated by an experienced pilot. If you are paying for experience you should not be doing it with passengers.

Southwest Pilots have some of the most experienced aviators in the business because the foster an enviornment that experienced pilots want to be a part of, and the pay is a part of that but not the only part.

I am going to guess you are a paid sales person hear to promote despite and valid concer, opinion, or objection. I feel this way because your rebutals are without fact or understanding of the industry and how experince in the cockpit is a valid concern. An "intern" is not the right person to have in a Part 121 airline cockpit.

When you want to talk about why southwest has the system they do ask a SW pilot or start a thread on that.

Please share your position in the industry and what perspective you are coming from so we can better understand your point of view.
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PaulR,

Thanks for the comments. This site seems to be lacking in thoughtful discourse.

You may want to rethink the experience angle. After all, last year there were plenty of 250 hour FOs flying the RJ for the first time with passengers on board during their IOE.

Do you think everyone arguing the other side is working for ATPs competition?
 
moleman said:
You're right its all the marketing. Probably has nothing to do with all the folks that have succeeded through ATP.

What happens to most people that begin their career at an FBO?

What happens to most people that begin their career with ATP?

When comparing the time it takes start to the airline job for people that are successful with the FBO route to the people that are successful at ATP, pretty sure the average ATP guy is at an airline before the FBO guy has finished his training.

Yeah you're right its the brochures.

Isn't the inconsistent training provided at FBOs the reason airlines prefer to hire military trained pilots over civilian trained pilots?
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I've seen your posts here and in another thread defending PFJ (basically a lame attempt to blur the line between PFJ and initial training, PFT and low time folks actually getting paid to work). Either you work there and push this programme, or was sold this and don't want to believe you got hosed, either way good luck.
 
Crockrocket94 said:
Oh boy, I wish I paid all that money to GIA and then got furloghed!!!!

I just wish people had more sense that money :(
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That'll be the day. . .at least in this profession.

Regrettably many members in our profession have or had (hah!) more money then they knew what to do with. Then they toss it towards "training," only to get rammed in the rear for 30 years of their life.

Here's to success. . .however you define it.
 
unclenobby said:
I've seen your posts here and in another thread defending PFJ (basically a lame attempt to blur the line between PFJ and initial training, PFT and low time folks actually getting paid to work). Either you work there and push this programme, or was sold this and don't want to believe you got hosed, either way good luck.
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That's what I thought.

What happens to most people that begin their career at an FBO?

What happens to most people that begin their career with ATP?

When comparing the time it takes, start to the airline job for people that are successful with the FBO route to the people that are successful at ATP, pretty sure the average ATP guy is at an airline before the FBO guy has finished his training.

Yeah you're right its the brochures.

Isn't the inconsistent training provided at FBOs the reason airlines prefer to hire military trained pilots over civilian trained pilots?

You make a post essentially saying people that go to ATP are falling for a marketing trick. But don't back it up, when someone challenges your statement. Reality kinda sucks that way huh?

Curious, are you working for an FBO? How does it work? You sit on jetcareers with all your other FBO buddies bashing ATP so that when a student is looking at your little school and comparing to ATP you can refer them to a place on the internet where everyone trashes ATP?

Tell me how long has the current owner of your school been training pilots?

Long enough to go through a few airline cycles and survive? You think he'll make it this time?
 
surreal1221 said:
That'll be the day. . .at least in this profession.

Regrettably many members in our profession have or had (hah!) more money then they knew what to do with. Then they toss it towards "training," only to get rammed in the rear for 30 years of their life.

Here's to success. . .however you define it.
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shouldn't you be cross checking ATPs print ads with their website for inaccuracies then making ranting posts calling them names with misrepresentations of what's actually on their site?

How's falcon? they pay you for your services or is it free of charge?
 
moleman said:
Tell me how long has the current owner of your school been training pilots?

Long enough to go through a few airline cycles and survive? You think he'll make it this time?
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The school where I got my PPL was started in 1970 about 14 years before ATP.
 
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