Gulfstream/PFJ/ATP

Status
Not open for further replies.
eclipse said:
How is it paying for a job? It looks like you pay for the 1900 training then work for 8$/ hour for 250 hours.
Click to expand...

Training is just a cost of doing business, and it shouldn't be passed on to the "employees." Trying to subsidize training costs on the backs of the pilots is unacceptable, and pilots shouldn't put up with it. I fell for this scam when I was a noob, and I hope no one else around here does. Don't give GIA any money.
 
eclipse said:
Serious question here to those who fly 121- is 250 Turbine 121 exp better than 250 dual given when trying to get hired? I dont know.
Click to expand...

I don't have 121 experience, but I do have 135/91 turbine experience FWIW....

A pilot that has taught for 250 hrs vs one that sits in the right seat of a 1900 at Gulfstream is MUCH sharper in the cockpit. I've done some flight training with pilots that got out of the Gulfstream scam with their SIC turbine time, and they were just terrible.

In one extreme case, I was giving a checkout to the Chief Pilot of a big 135 outfit in south FL. His wife went to Flight Safety and then on to Gulfstream, and he wanted to get her on with his company as some kind of SIC. He was doing the checkout with me so he could train her in our 172s. Anyway, he said that her radio skills were good, but that she wasn't capable of planning and flying a x/c flight by herself. Keep in mind she probably had a few hundred hrs at this point. That's is effing scary...

When we (the Chief Pilot and I) got back from the checkout, I talked with her a bit and was amazed. Very cocky with all of her "turbine time", yet severely lacking in many basic areas. I can't even imagine what a nightmare that would be to teach somebody like that with so many holes in their knowledge.
 
I think I learned more about how to be a pilot in 250 hours of flight instructing than I did in 350 hours in the ERJ (both real numbers for me, and both small numbers :p). I knew a lot more (or maybe just different) technical stuff from 121 flying, but that's the not same as what you learn shooting approaches with a student, for example.

I honestly can't imagine how much harder/more stressful training would have been at xjet without my short stint as a CFI. I didn't even know how much I didn't know about instrument flying until I was working on my II.
 
Clocks said:
I think I learned more about how to be a pilot in 250 hours of flight instructing than I did in 350 hours in the ERJ (both real numbers for me, and both small numbers :p). I knew a lot more (or maybe just different) technical stuff from 121 flying, but that's the not same as what you learn shooting approaches with a student, for example.

I honestly can't imagine how much harder/more stressful training would have been at xjet without my short stint as a CFI. I didn't even know how much I didn't know about instrument flying until I was working on my II.
Click to expand...

Definitely. We were just discussing this subject on another forum, and most agree that it's very beneficial to spend the first part of your pilot career in a PIC type of role (flight instructing, single pilot IFR, etc.). This teaches independent decision making and boosts confidence, which are extremely important traits to have as you move on in your career.
 
I've been in training with two GIA pilots in the past, and got to sit in on sim sessions with both. Both were very weak and behind the airplane. One was cocky, the other wasn't, but they were both substandard in their skills.

For one of them, that lack of skills may have proved very tragic.
 
moleman said:
Gotta pay for your 737 type before they'll hire you. Should training be a cost of doing business for them too?

Should we all be worked up whenever we meet a Southwest pilot?
Click to expand...

Wow...do you work for ATP? Are you in their sales dept.? Because you are sure trying to rationalize a very awful program.

Even if you want to talk about SWA, anyone who gets a job with them more than makes up for paying for the 737 type rating. With gulfstream, first you pay them $25,000 and then get paid $8.00 after that. In addition, the program only gets you 250 hours which works out to $2000 total. If you figure it probably takes 4 months to fly 250 hours, that means you are being paid $500 a month before taxes and not including housing or any other living expenses. I don't know of many people who can afford to live in S. FL making $500 a month.

One other thing, a 737 type rating costs about $8,000 (I think). A first first year FO at SWA makes around $50,000 a year. In their second year, the pay jumps to about $90,000.

Now try to compare SWA to gulfstream again.

I think you work for ATP cause you sure do defend them to the end.
 
guywhoflies said:
Wow...do you work for ATP? Are you in their sales dept.? Because you are sure trying to rationalize a very awful program.

Even if you want to talk about SWA, anyone who gets a job with them more than makes up for paying for the 737 type rating. With gulfstream, first you pay them $25,000 and then get paid $8.00 after that. In addition, the program only gets you 250 hours which works out to $2000 total. If you figure it probably takes 4 months to fly 250 hours, that means you are being paid $500 a month before taxes and not including housing or any other living expenses. I don't know of many people who can afford to live in S. FL making $500 a month.

One other thing, a 737 type rating costs about $8,000 (I think). A first first year FO at SWA makes around $50,000 a year. In their second year, the pay jumps to about $90,000.

Now try to compare SWA to gulfstream again.

I think you work for ATP cause you sure do defend them to the end.
Click to expand...

You're funny. Cause anyone that would contradict anything you say must work for ATP. I work for reason. Who do you work for?

Please stay on topic.

So PFT is ok if it leads to making money?

What if a guy pays for his type and then doesn't get the job? Is it wrong then?

So if a guy gets a start with gulfstream and then eventually ends up at United then everything's cool because he's making money? But it's not cool until he's making money.

Then if he get's furloughed from United he's gulfstream scum because he's no longer making money.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just saying we all ought be careful where we draw the line cause in the end unless you received your training from the military we're all paying for it one way or another.
 
This is very, very simple.

If you are making revenue for a company you should be getting paid. That's it. Nothing else. The litmus test is that simple.
 
moleman said:
You're funny. Cause anyone that would contradict anything you say must work for ATP. I work for reason. Who do you work for?

Please stay on topic.

So PFT is ok if it leads to making money?

What if a guy pays for his type and then doesn't get the job? Is it wrong then?

So if a guy gets a start with gulfstream and then eventually ends up at United then everything's cool because he's making money? But it's not cool until he's making money.

Then if he get's furloughed from United he's gulfstream scum because he's no longer making money.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just saying we all ought be careful where we draw the line cause in the end unless you received your training from the military we're all paying for it one way or another.
Click to expand...

Moleman,

I think most are trying to say its NOT OK to place an "intern" in the cockpit of an airliner with paying passengers.

Its NOT ok to have a paying student placed in a cockpit that should be operated by an experienced pilot. If you are paying for experience you should not be doing it with passengers.

Southwest Pilots have some of the most experienced aviators in the business because the foster an enviornment that experienced pilots want to be a part of, and the pay is a part of that but not the only part.

I am going to guess you are a paid sales person hear to promote despite and valid concer, opinion, or objection. I feel this way because your rebutals are without fact or understanding of the industry and how experince in the cockpit is a valid concern. An "intern" is not the right person to have in a Part 121 airline cockpit.

When you want to talk about why southwest has the system they do ask a SW pilot or start a thread on that.

Please share your position in the industry and what perspective you are coming from so we can better understand your point of view.
 
IMO, paying for a 737 type for Southwest is a pre-requisite no different than paying to get your Commercial or ATP certificate. It's what they require prior to getting hired. If you don't want to do that, there are other airlines out there to apply for that don't require it.

There are certain amounts of training that you will have to pay for, unless you go military..but even then, you're still paying for it, just in a different way. So in sense, there is a certain amount of PFT in the industry.

PFJ.....or Pay for Job, is a whole another animal altogether. You don't pay to work for someone; as a professional, you get paid.
 
Hey, did the folks ever try that restaurant on N. Scottsdale Road just south of the 101/the "Persian Room"? I remember you asking about that but Kristie and I haven't made it there yet.
 
moleman said:
You're funny. Cause anyone that would contradict anything you say must work for ATP. I work for reason. Who do you work for?

Please stay on topic.

So PFT is ok if it leads to making money?

What if a guy pays for his type and then doesn't get the job? Is it wrong then?

So if a guy gets a start with gulfstream and then eventually ends up at United then everything's cool because he's making money? But it's not cool until he's making money.

Then if he get's furloughed from United he's gulfstream scum because he's no longer making money.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just saying we all ought be careful where we draw the line cause in the end unless you received your training from the military we're all paying for it one way or another.
Click to expand...

So you would rather pay to fly then be payed to fly...

Wow that's neat.

If this is the attitude of my generation of pilots, this career is going down the drain. Just wait till Delta, Continental and the like find out there are pilots just waiting to PAY to fly their airplanes.
 
I wonder if the PAs will say "On behalf of Captain Thompson and Intern Eric...welcome aboard"?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top