Gulfstream Int'l Flight Academy

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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. However, I am not the only CFI with several hundred dual given hours that agrees that we are not learning anything new and what we are re-hashing is getting old. Even the instrument training gets old when you can teach your student like it is second nature. That is another point...Once you have got it down you do not need to keep re-hashing it with a student.

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I don't mean to pick a fight with ya but this sounds alot like complacency.....and that KILLS PILOTS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Viper548,

First of all ASA does not see a penny of the $25K. Flight Safety is paid the money for training and then ASA pay's for your indoc training. I can't stand it when people talk [expletive deleted] when they do not know what they are talking about. You obviously know nothing about Flight Safety or their programs. I think you had better do your homework.

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I'd rather MAKE $15,000 to gain 1000 hrs experience as a CFI than PAY $25,000 for a crash course on what a CFI learns in 1000 hrs.


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Crash course huh? Like I said, do your homework. If you think 1000 hours of instruction will replace 30 hours of LOFT training in a high performance twin learning ASA's callouts and operations followed by 100 hours of ground school on advanced systems of a turbine aircraft to include intro to glass, FMS, Flight director, high altitude operations and endorsment, auto pilot, and MUCH more...Not to mention 36 hours in a SAAB 2000 level "D" SIM using everything you have learned, flying approaches, handling every possible emergency they will throw at you in a turbine aircraft, learning how to work in a crew environment and after you have practiced all of that, being able to pass the same checkride any other high time pilot would get........I think you are an idiot.

Flight Safety uses the same training program for the ground and SAAB SIM that they use at ground schools for airlines all over the world. Do you think that Southwest, Alaska, UPS, FED EX, etc. use CRASH COURSES for their indoc training. Trust me when I say that Flight Safety International knows how to train pilots to fly a jet. Why do you think they have such a high success rate with ASA and this program. Before 9/11 three other airlines were set to sign for the same program at the academy.

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Never had to think of a new way to explain a concept to a student? Never had to take the controls during a landing to save your life? Never had to expain how NDB's work over and over and over again?


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Explain a new concept to a student? Yea, I did very well on my FOI and my students alway's understand completely what I am teaching them. I am sorry if you are having trouble with it.

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I've learned a lot as a CFI, experience I would never learn in a bridge program. If you didn't learn anything as a CFI, you probably didn't let the students fly the plane

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If you have learned so much as a CFI then you probably did not do well through your CFI ratings. When I said that I have not learned anything new I was correct. I completed all of my ratings with a 96% average, which means I learned damn near all of the knowledge and had no problem at all in the plane on any of the three ratings. IT IS MEANT TO BE THAT WAY YOU KNOW. You are supposed to know everything ( at least what is in the PTS) before you step foot in the plane to teach the student. THEN, what you have learned and KNOW is re-enforced with repetitive practice whether it be verbal instruction or demonstrating the maneuvers for the student. My students ALWAYS fly the plane. I thought I covered that in the last post...ILS

P.S. Still working on that NDB stuff huh? I here they like to throw in a fixed card approach in a lot of initial sim rides at the regional level. Do you think you can handle it? What if they fail an engine while going missed circling back to hold at the NDB with a fixed card? Can you handle that? I hear alot of guy's bust on that one. Maybe you can find a new way to explain it to the sim instructor...Good Luck!
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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I don't mean to pick a fight with ya but this sounds alot like complacency.....and that KILLS PILOTS

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Look up complacency and let me know when you find the definition...ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Ananaman,
I could appreciate your comment if that were the case but it is not. I am sitting on 700TT/180 multi/35 actual. All I am saying is that I have taken all that I need from instructing. I can't extract anything more that I do not already have down. Alot of guy's are in this position. In the early day's of instruction you are re-enforcing and COMMITTING to memory what you already knew. Yes, you do get some scares and have to take the controls, catch some radio calls etc. But...After you have become proficient in the IFR environment in the light single/twin aircraft the CFI position becomes useless other than a paycheck (if you call it that) and a means to put empty hours in your logbook. I look at solid hours in the logbook as time when I am manipulating the controls, not waiting to catch them.

It sounds like you have some good instruction time. That's good. I am ready for the next step which for me is a more advanced complex aircraft. I can take a Seminole up all day long and never miss a beat. I want more...

The way things are going with the hiring still at 2000+ hours I would still put down the money for a program like ASA's...ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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After you have become proficient in the IFR environment in the light single/twin aircraft the CFI position becomes useless other than a paycheck (if you call it that) and a means to put empty hours in your logbook. I look at solid hours in the logbook as time when I am manipulating the controls, not waiting to catch them.

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YEAH!!!!!!!!!! Someone who finally said it best!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Lemme chime in real quick before I hit the sack.

First, great job at a spirited discussion and avoiding the traditional "insult fest".

As FEDEX's Fred Smith says, "Bravo Zulu". Well, and about every other Marine grunt...

But in my professional opinion, and I may be absolutely wrong, but most of what I learned as a CFI had nothing to do with aircraft control; I learned more about CRM, grace under pressure and the intricate task of working with another person in a stressful environment that may not communicate the way you do.

Like going into LGA this evening, they gave us a pop-up, last minute freeway visual and I could feel the captain was behind the aircraft. He's the captain, he's the ultimate authority, but some of the same things that I did when I was a CFI and I could sense my student working himself into a corner are some of the same skills that I used to help the captain psychologically build a little more space and catch up with the procedure.

It all came extraordinarily natural and I didn't even realize it but on the van ride to Manhattan, he kept thanking me for "saving his ass on the arrival and approach" and demanded to buy me a slice of "Ray's" (which is now Sofia's Pizza).

I learned, as a CFI, that you can't possibly attempt to spoonfeed someone because that'll spark an emotional defense response because then they feel like you're preaching.

But when the situation throws a fast pitch, as a good non-flying pilot, you're trying to catch the pitches, no matter how fast and furious they come, and neatly place them on the tee-ball stand for your flying pilot to take a swing.

Just like I did as a CFI. But all of those skills are non-flying skills.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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Crash course huh? Like I said, do your homework. If you think 1000 hours of instruction will replace 30 hours of LOFT training in a high performance twin learning ASA's callouts and operations followed by 100 hours of ground school on advanced systems of a turbine aircraft to include intro to glass, FMS, Flight director, high altitude operations and endorsment, auto pilot, and MUCH more...Not to mention 36 hours in a SAAB 2000 level "D" SIM using everything you have learned, flying approaches, handling every possible emergency they will throw at you in a turbine aircraft, learning how to work in a crew environment and after you have practiced all of that, being able to pass the same checkride any other high time pilot would get........I think you are an idiot.

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CL4ILS,

The 1000 hours of instruction is what you make of it. You get out of it what you put into it. You can learn CRM, etc while instructing depending how you instruct. Hell, I could study all the books and take 30 hours of Space Shuttle time, that doesn't necessarily translate to me being ready to hop right into the right seat.

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Explain a new concept to a student? Yea, I did very well on my FOI and my students alway's understand completely what I am teaching them. I am sorry if you are having trouble with it.

If you have learned so much as a CFI then you probably did not do well through your CFI ratings. When I said that I have not learned anything new I was correct. I completed all of my ratings with a 96% average, which means I learned damn near all of the knowledge and had no problem at all in the plane on any of the three ratings. IT IS MEANT TO BE THAT WAY YOU KNOW. You are supposed to know everything ( at least what is in the PTS) before you step foot in the plane to teach the student. THEN, what you have learned and KNOW is re-enforced with repetitive practice whether it be verbal instruction or demonstrating the maneuvers for the student. My students ALWAYS fly the plane. I thought I covered that in the last post...ILS

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ILS,

I've got to say this here, you're pretty damn cocky and overconfident for someone with a meager 700TT, partner. Saying things like "I learn nothing new as a CFI" shows severe complacency. If you're learning nothing when you fly, then its time to hang up your spurs, hoss. "You are supposed to know everything before you step into the plane with the student." Are you REALLY serious? Pardon me, but that's completely the wrong attitude. You REALLY think you know EVERYTHING at 700TT just because you have a CFI cert and passed the FOI?? Let me clue you in on something....a CFI cert, while a license to teach, is also another license to learn, much like the Comm/Inst. Other stuff like "my students ALWAYS understand what I teach them (implying you never have to re-explain anything)," Christ....do you actually read what you write? With your attitude, you're going to work yourself right into a smoking hole in the ground. I'm at over 5300TT, have more night time than you have TT, and gradded #1 in both my pilot training class and my A-10 transition class, and yet, I still experience new stuff, and I've been flying the same types of missions for 3.5 years. I've done pretty much everything there is to do in the A-10, and still I run into stuff I haven't seen, or occasionally find new ways to scare myself/potentially kill myself.

I know you've got the FSI sales pitch going, but if THAT's the attitude of overconfidence that FSI puts into their students, I worry about that. It's that kind of attitude that finds the guy that pushes WX or another situation with "bad idea" written all over it, but the moron doesn't see that since he lacks the experience and wisdom of learned judgement and presses in....all the way to the crash site. Can-do attitude is one thing, the blinders of cockiness is another.

You may or may not agree with me, but I speak from experience...a wide range of what I've seen in my time. You already completely disregard what an experienced UPS 727 pilot says......should that tell you something?

On the flip side of the coin, I can fully appreciate your desire to move up and the feeling that you "know your job" at the level you're at. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to tackle more. Just don't disregard where you're at now, lest it bite you in the butt when you least expect it while airborne. Whether you know it or not, there's much out there, even at your level, that I'm willing to bet you haven't experienced yet.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Guess I'll chime in, I prefer the CFI route.

I don't know why Doug keeps stressing that those skills are non-flying skills.

To me, the judgement, CRM and personal skills are the flying skills.

Once you get to a certain point of working radios, autopilots, and can flare for landing you seldom need anything else. No one wants you to perform a split S or an Immelman with an airliner. Chuck Yeager would make a lousy airline pilot!

You don't acquire good judgement sitting in a simulator at Flight Safety. You acquire a lot of skills but judgement comes from actual in flight experience. Doing dual cross countries are a very good place for building experience.

I'll leave you with this: "A Superior Pilot uses Superior Judgement to avoid using Superior Skills."
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

I'll have to reiterate what Doug said. I think everyone and their brother on the boards knows now about my position. I was very fortunate to get hired with very low time at a regional into a very complex turboprop. Luckily (yes, luckily) I was able to CFI while still in college. I learned much in those 46 hours of dual with my two students. But I didn't learn as much about flying as I did about handling various personalities in the cockpit. I had two students with personalities at each end of the spectrum, and learning how to maintain a professional cockpit with all three of us in the airplane was the real challenge.

When you get to the regionals, you'll find that the flying isn't the difficult part. Don't think that means the flying is easy, but what I mean is there is so many other things you must be concerned about, that the actual stick and rudder flying skills become almost "automatic." You must learn to fly to very strict standards while at the same time absorbing complex (and quickly read) ATC instructions, performing checklists, conducting briefings, etc. All of this very quickly, since you are moving at a very high speed. These are not things one person can do, which is why there are two of you up front. The key is to read the other person, and coordinate yourself with them. Sometimes you must do this without even looking at them. You must be able to adapt to changes from normal operation, and help out the other person as needed (or vice versa).

An example: This morning, coming into Chicago, my captain was talking to our FA about a situation when we were assigned a crossing restriction. Although I was the non-flying pilot, I did our descent planning and decided on a DME which would be the closest we could let it go before having to get down. When we reached that point, I gave some hand signals that said "crossing restriction, gotta go down" and the captain just gave a thumbs up and pointed to the power levers. So I reduced the power and began the descent as necessary so we could make the restriction. I still was doing my PNF duties like getting ATIS, setting up the radios, etc., while helping out with the actual flying since the captain was tied up with another situation. When he came back onto intercom I explained the restriction and how I set up the descent profile, and he took over again. This is what moving on to the airlines is all about.

You must learn to read people. You must learn how to properly point out mistakes that could cause problems, and learn which things to point out and when. Getting slow on the approach? Well are you below Vref yet, or are you just below the normal approach speed? Does it look like the PF is making movement to correct the situation? Is it critical to point out? If you are going to point it out, can you hint towards it with a statement (I'm showing just below Vref. What are you showing?), or do you need to be more forceful (We're slow. Still slow.) These are the types of things you pick up from being a CFI.

There is no clear answer. The fact is whether you have 2000 dual or 0 dual, 8000 TT or 500 TT, you must have the ability to work as a team with your fellow crewmembers, and adapt to non-normal and quickly changing situations without letting the airplane get away from you. You must learn to prioritize (aviate, navigate, communicate, you know), and learn how to help out the other person on the flight deck.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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Saying things like "I learn nothing new as a CFI" shows severe complacency. If you're learning nothing when you fly, then its time to hang up your spurs, hoss.

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Thanks MikeD.. it KILLS and if you think it doesn't go read NTSB reports
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Here ya go and ya thats the kind of CFI you sound like

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The kind of CFI I sound like? It came up and said "No arguments in request".
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Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

This might mean nothing...but after reading what Doug had to say I thought it might be relevant.

I have zero flying hours unless you count sitting in the back of a plane
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...Hopefully I'll be up flying soon and on my way to a career as a professional pilot.

For the past two years I've worked with kids every single day of the week. During the summers I spend over 10 hours a day with kids. I've learned so much. I've learned how to interact with kids and how to figure them out. I spend most of the days helping kids with school work and teaching them some skill. I've had to adapt to many kids teaching styles that they work best with. Everyday I have something new thrown my way. Whenever I think I know how to get some point across....I'm pleasantly surprised that I have to work a little extra harder and figure out a better way to help a kid out.

I think the best place to learn anything is teaching someone else. There is NO replacement for time as a teacher. Teachers have to be on top on their stuff and have to know generally the right approach to go around things. The lessons learned can not be found anywhere else. Teaching someone else is one of the most rewarding things out there todo....I hope if you don't see it like this...then I sure don't want you as a flight instructor. I think teachers do a disservice with attitudes like they know it all or someone with the attitude CLR4ILS has.

I think a CFI should value that time they have instructing someone else. I think you will learn the most about yourself and about flying during that stage. IF you don't you must be blind as a bat or pretty ignorant.

I look forward to my time as a CFI....Who knows maybe I'll make a career out of being a CFI.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Mike D,

You have missed the point completely... Maybe you shouldn't have skipped the instructing part, then you would know what I am talking about.

When I say you should know everything before you step into the plane with the student that means everything you are to teach them (how about everything the FAA wants us to teach per the PTS). If you did not know the definition of something or how to explain something in the PTS then YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN YOUR TICKET PERIOD. Yes, the ticket is a license to learn BUT if you have the foundation down when you get the ticket then you are re-enforcing and committing to memory, not learning something new. Yes, you will learn new things when you fly and as you should. You will learn something new or learn something you have forgotten every flying day for the rest of your life. Yes, people have different learning styles and you will have to adapt to them as a CFI when explaining things.


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The 1000 hours of instruction is what you make of it.

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If you are teaching the student using a sylabus and the PTS then you will be re-hashing the same material over and over again. Yes, you can pick up on something new on that X-country 51 NM miles away but you can also pick up the same thing getting real flying experience like you did.

My point about CFI's not learning anything new was that after a few students the material repeats itself. Yes, you can find new way's to introduce the material and flight lessons but if you ask any HONEST CFI if they do, they will say I have found that this (being one way for the particular situation) works best and that is the way I teach it.

IN MY OPINION, My knowledge and stick skills as a CFI "who does not fly the plane most of the time" are not advancing the way I would like to see them advance. This is why I say I am bored with the CFI route. I am happy for those who still feel they are getting something new every day from it. I happen to know alot of CFI's that feel the same way I do. Does this mean that they show up and act like a bump on a log with their student? NO!!! We are professionals and I will be the first one to tell you that I take my instruction very seriously especially when someones life is on the line.

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I know you've got the FSI sales pitch going, but if THAT's the attitude of overconfidence that FSI puts into their students, I worry about that. It's that kind of attitude that finds the guy that pushes WX or another situation with "bad idea" written all over it, but the moron doesn't see that since he lacks the experience and wisdom of learned judgement and presses in....all the way to the crash site. Can-do attitude is one thing, the blinders of cockiness is another.


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You think that just because I say that I am a proficient CFI and feel I have learned what I needed to as a CFI that I would push the envelope in bad WX or make a "go" decision when it was obviously a "no go" decision? FSI is "probably" the most thorough flight school in the nation and you think that they teach their pilots bad habits and to be overconfident. Come on Mike, you have to admit that was a stupid statement.

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and still I run into stuff I haven't seen, or occasionally find new ways to scare myself/potentially kill myself.

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You and "I" will run into stuff the rest of our flying career like that. I know that and hopefully everyone else does too. Let's just hope it doesn't kill us!!!

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On the flip side of the coin, I can fully appreciate your desire to move up and the feeling that you "know your job" at the level you're at.

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Thank you, that was my point the whole time since the beginning. Will I learn something new while giving dual between 700 hours and the mins of a regional? Yes, I am sure I will, but will it make any difference in my knowledge "as a CFI" or my stick skills to get me through that interview? I do not feel it will and neither does most of the CFI's I associate with. Would I learn something new in a more advanced or even at least a different aircraft doing some completely different flying (hopefully hands on, you know sole manipulator)? Yes, that is what I am talking about. Can you appreciate that?

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You already completely disregard what an experienced UPS 727 pilot says......should that tell you something?

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My mentor who got me started in aviation is a UPS MD-11 Captain. He was a CFI who stole time in Lear to get him to UPS. He has been a captian on the Stretch DC-8 and the 747 before recently taking the MD-11. He shares the same feelings with regard to "to much dual given". He said himself that pretty soon it was like OK, I need to learn something new, this is getting rediculous. That is when he flew the Lear for free and gave up instruction. I do respect DE727UPS's opinion but, on the flip side I have another UPS friend of mine giving me the oposite advice. His advice is backed up by several other pilots in the industry.

I asked my friend with UPS the other day the question that DE727 said he would ask his fellow captains; (would you fly with a 300-500 pilot in a jet?) his response was; "if he has the knowledge and can pass the sim ride then give him to me for a hundred hours and I will take care of the rest". He did say that yes, there will be situations where the young pilot will second guess himself but, he will hopefully respond within his training, abilities, and experience just as we all have when we were low time pilots.


Anyway, just more opinions....ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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You don't acquire good judgement sitting in a simulator at Flight Safety. You acquire a lot of skills but judgement comes from actual in flight experience. Doing dual cross countries are a very good place for building experience.

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Your absolutely correct about the judgment...Been there though. I have been in the SAAB sim several times at Flight Safety and I found it more beneficial than the X-countries because I have, well like I said, already been there...good point though...ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Flychicaga,

I can appreciate what you and Doug have chimed in on. If you can't work in a crew environment there will be problems. I got a taste of CRM in the SAAB sim down at FSA. Had the opportunity to fly with the sim instructor for several hours flying approaches and of course practicing maneuvers to satisfy his currency. Those were fun. You are right about how fast you have to do things. It was an eye opener and a great experience. I can't wait to see the glass again soon.

I guess the question here is, and everyone can chime in on their opinion on this one; How many dual given hours or do you think you need to instruct at all to be able to handle CRM in the cockpit. I mean, some guy's have never instructed and they have adapted just fine....ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Well Matt, that is great you love to teach. I STILL like teaching people how to fly. I never said I didn't. At this point as a CFI knowing where I want to be in my aviation career I have taken all I can from this stage. Why can't anyone appreciate that. It's like, Oh [expletive deleted], he hasn't reached the mins for the regional interview yet, he's not ready, he must continue to teach the same [expletive deleted] over and over again. That mentality gets old.

When I teach I am very thorough. I make sure they are prepared and that I have not left ANYTHING out. If I do, and they fail, who's responsible for their failure? I am partially. Not to mention that if I leave something out and they go kill themselves, guess who has to live with that. You will see what I am talking about when you reach the CFI position...

NO, I do not think I know everything. I am the first to admit if I do not know something because I do not want to give inaccurate information. remember, we are talking about an airplane that can hit the ground really hard.

Good news for you. If you have your teaching certificate you do not have to take the FOI written during your CFI training. It is a good refresher though. Just a heads up..ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

"First of all ASA does not see a penny of the $25K. Flight Safety is paid the money for training and then ASA pay's for your indoc training. I can't stand it when people talk [expletive deleted] when they do not know what they are talking about. You obviously know nothing about Flight Safety or their programs. I think you had better do your homework. "

You're right, Flight safety gets good money for a bunch of simulator/CRM training. ASA reduces their risk of hiring an idiot. Works great for both companies. Student's paying $25K for something the company should be paying for because they want a shortcut to an airline seat sounds similar to what Gulfstream does. Not exactly the same as PFT, but along the lines of that.

"Crash course huh? Like I said, do your homework. If you think 1000 hours of instruction will replace 30 hours of LOFT training in a high performance twin learning ASA's callouts and operations followed by 100 hours of ground school on advanced systems of a turbine aircraft to include intro to glass, FMS, Flight director, high altitude operations and endorsment, auto pilot, and MUCH more...Not to mention 36 hours in a SAAB 2000 level "D" SIM using everything you have learned, flying approaches, handling every possible emergency they will throw at you in a turbine aircraft, learning how to work in a crew environment and after you have practiced all of that, being able to pass the same checkride any other high time pilot would get........I think you are an idiot. "

66 hrs of sim training replaces 1000 hours of real world experience. That sounds intense. Must be Super High Intensity Training.

"Explain a new concept to a student? Yea, I did very well on my FOI and my students alway's understand completely what I am teaching them. I am sorry if you are having trouble with it. "

I also did well on my FOI. So all your students get their ratings at the minimum hours? If they don't then maybe it's because you have to re-explain things to them.



"If you have learned so much as a CFI then you probably did not do well through your CFI ratings."

All three, first try.

"When I said that I have not learned anything new I was correct."

I dare you to say that to your interviewer at ASA

"I completed all of my ratings with a 96% average, which means I learned damn near all of the knowledge and had no problem at all in the plane on any of the three ratings. IT IS MEANT TO BE THAT WAY YOU KNOW" You are supposed to know everything ( at least what is in the PTS) before you step foot in the plane to teach the student.

The 94% I got on my ATP written brought my average down to a 96%. I also agree that one must completely know all subjects covered in the PTS before becoming an instructor.


"THEN, what you have learned and KNOW is re-enforced with repetitive practice whether it be verbal instruction or demonstrating the maneuvers for the student. My students ALWAYS fly the plane. I thought I covered that in the last post...ILS"

I have no problem with the knowlege or the flying skills. It's trying to get the student to understand that's the hard part.

"Still working on that NDB stuff huh?"

Yes, I teach NDB's to all my instrument students.

"I here they like to throw in a fixed card approach in a lot of initial sim rides at the regional level. Do you think you can handle it?"


All our planes have fixed cards. Yes I can handle it

What I have learned as a CFI isn't stick and rudder, it's working with other people, seeing how others learn (or don't learn). This stuff will become useful later.
If you want to spend the money for the sim training, go for it. For the same amount of money, you could also get two type ratings. They do a lot of emergencys and CRM stuff in those sims too. Just a thought. I'm not about to say that a 300 hour pilot can't fly a jet, they can. I flew a jet at 380 hrs, and I even got a new license out of it.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Ok, just a few things real quick...

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66 hrs of sim training replaces 1000 hours of real world experience. That sounds intense. Must be Super High Intensity Training.


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Ok, now THAT is funny.
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About the fixed card thing: What regional does that? We flew many NDB approaches both AEO and OEI during training (heck, on line too), but yet there was no way we could fly them fixed card. Our equipment does not allow it. I can't think of an airplane operated by the regionals which would require a fixed card approach. I'm not knocking you, I'm just curious what your instructors are telling you... what regional throws in a fixed card NDB?
 
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