Gulfstream Int'l Flight Academy

[sorrygottarunway]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

I was thinking you'd get the ratings too at first... but then I read you already have to have commercial/instrument done. I mean, isn't that WHY we are going to school?

-B

 

[little_cricket]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

They used to do ratings, but they gave that up about a year ago. Now, they are strictly PFT. One of my students went there and scares me to think of her flying CRJ at Pinnacle.

Side note: Anyone know where to check their financial health. SkyWest still has an agreement with Continental to take over if they go under. So just, morbid curiousity where they stand.

 

[JDMcFly]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

I hope we didn't scare 4thpage off of Jetcareers!

 

[johnbail]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

shooter13

I mean no disrespect but did you ever notice how muche the person in the photo looks like Al Bundy? Is it a photo of him.

 

[shooter13]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

LOL That is one of the funniest things I have heard. You guys have outed me.. I am actually Al Bundy...

I played with a picture of Bondra for a few minutes one day and put my face on it. I figure that is as close as i will ever get to a picture of me signing with the Caps...

Maybe I should be an actor.

 

[DE727UPS]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

"ASA has said that almost all of the students that have gone through the program have done exceptionaly well in the CRJ ground school, taking some of the highest scores in the class and on the SIM rides. Not bad for 300+ hour pilots."

Wonder how they did during IOE? I have a friend who's a check airman at Mesa that gets to fly with the low time wonders. He says they have a huge "real world" knowledge gap but learn quickly and have a great attitude. It's the first 100 hours that scares me. FAR's require FO's with less than 100 hours to fly with Capts with more than 100's hours but I still see the low time wonders as a liability. Airline Capts in 121 pax operations shouldn't have to worry about flying with 300 hour FO's.....they got enough to worry about.

FSIflyer.

There is no doubt in my mind that going to Gulfstream can give one's career a boost. There is also no doubt in my mind that programs like this are bad for the profession and, if allowed to grow and prosper, will find there way into larger and larger airlines. Gulfstream is like a bad drug....it would be so easy to make it go away if you just stopped doing it but, for some, the addiction (to a fast airline seat) is overwhelming.

PFT (which should really be PFJ) is bad for the profession because it takes what would traditionally be a paying job away from someone and makes the flight crewmember a revenue source for the airline. This is a bad deal for us because it gets management used to taking advantage of pilots and lowers the bar for the profession. Make no mistake, the Gulfstream scheme can be a good deal for the individual....that's if everything works out...but it's still a bad deal for the profession in general.

Where I draw the line on PFT is "can the airlplane be dispatched without you in the seat". If the answer is YES, which is the way I believe Alpine and Ameriflight work (1900's can be flown single pilot), then it's not PFT and you are just paying for time (uh oh...that spells PFT, too...). At Gulfstream, they can't fly the plane without you so it most definately is the worst form of paying for a job.

Just my two cents....

Why should I care? I'm number 857 at UPS and most definately "have mine"....PFT won't effect me one way or the other. I just hate to see the profession degraded, that's why I offer up my opinion at places like this and flightinfo.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

[quoteWhere I draw the line on PFT is "can the airlplane be dispatched without you in the seat". If the answer is YES, which is the way I believe Alpine and Ameriflight work (1900's can be flown single pilot), then it's not PFT and you are just paying for time (uh oh...that spells PFT, too...).

[/ QUOTE ]

And they are at Ameriflight. Everything there is flown single-pilot IFR except for the Lears.

 

[CLR4ILS]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

DE727UPS,

Give me your best CFI that meets ASA's Minimums at say around 1200 hours and I will take one of Flight Safety's ASA program graduates with say 300 hours and we will see which one has the best knowledge and stick skills. I will put my money on the Flight Safety guy hands down. Flight Safety's job is to take the 300 hour pilot and get them to the proficiency level of a "good" 1500 hour+ instrument pilot. You say they lack "real world experience" that they would have recieved between 300 and ASA's mins (1200). Tell me where the real world experience is between the airport and the practice area. Do you have any idea how many CFI's out there are building single engine pre-private VFR time all the way up to a companies mins??? I personally know a few CFI's here in Phoenix that have over 1000 hours with maybe 20 multi and NO CFII. These guy's are going from the airport to the practice area all day long in VFR with a pre-private student. I had the opportunity to witness one of them ATTEMPT to fly MS flight sim and he did not even know how to use an HSI or RMI. I couldn't believe it. Another one of these VFR "wonders" with "real world experience" got a call for an interview with Skywest and FAILED the written on the WEIGHT AND BALANCE portion of the test.

So there you have it. CFI's that meet the minimum requirements with "real world experience" that wouldn't stand a chance against a Flight Safety ASA student with 300 hours. I don't know about you but I would rather have the 300 hour pilot sitting next to me that recieved exceptional training, has a knowledge level far above most of the CFI's out there, PASSED A CHECKRIDE IN A LEVEL D EVALUATED BY THE HEAD SIM INSTRUCTOR OF ASA, and passed all of his indoc with very high scores.

Don't get me wrong. I do not care for programs like Gulfstreams either but there are a couple of programs that are working and Flight Safety's is the best I have seen so far. The ASA program was designed NOT TO BE PFT. ASA made sure of that. They simply told Flight Safety; if you can produce a PROFICIENT 300 hour pilot we will interveiw them the same as we would any other candidate that meets our mins. If they pass then we will give them a COE before they do the Seneca and SAAB training. So far only 2 have washed out of the program. One guy had the knowledge and stick skills but couldn't work in a crew environment (you know, CRM). The other guy should have been pulled out in the Seneca training and soon was when he hit the SAAB.

Anyway, I know you have alot of time under your belt and did it the old school way, but trust me when I tell you that there are, or at least there is one program that takes the pilot from 300 hours to a very high proficiency level without instructing. That program is at Flight Safety. Granted not everyone can handle this type of program and I do believe there was one guy who pulled himself out at the Seneca training stage of the program, but for the ones good enough to handle it, why not?

Remember, the military has been putting guy's in multi million dollar jet aircraft from day one and you do not see the tax payers bitchin. May I also remind you that these tax payers are the ones flying on our regional aircraft.

Let's not forget that Flight Safety also trains a good portion of the military pilots as well. If the government trusts FSI, so should you...

Now you have my 3 cents...ILS

 

[MattB]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Shooter13, if they grad doesn't go on to Colgan right after he/she is done, then they fly for TAB's own airline that was set up specificaly for this program, not like Gulfstream's that exsisted prior to the creation to the flight school. So the graduate is not in fact taking a seat from somebody that would be getting paid more.

 

[fsiflyer]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

CLR4ILS and DE727UPS,
I agree with you both. I do not like what Gulfstream does and that is the reason I did not go there, all I stated was how my friend did and he is WAY ahead of me and I am a flight instructor that had to get another job to survive...no biggie I am ok with that. All I want is my shot now and I would never go to a PFT.

I believe that the FSI ASA program and MESA's PACE program as not being PFT. They are both very high paced and rigid programs designed to produce a very high competency level at approx 300 hours. European companies have been doing it for years and I personally have a friend at Lufthansa that is flying heavies, yes heavies across the Atlantic and he came from flying a seminole at FSI. Out of this world...yes but it can and is done everyday, and it is safe. I still believe that paying ones dues is important...hell I spent six years in the Marine Corps and paid plenty of them granted not as a pilot. I became a CFI and now I want my shot which I believe I can EARN by passing an interview and proving my ability to master a complex jet aircraft and fly the line. I know that if I came from a mom and pop FBO, and I am in now way speaking down on them, I would not be able to do it. FSI taught me how to be a professional pilot. They instilled into me the discipline and knowledge needed to function in a multi crew environment, fly complex airplanes, understand complex aeronautical theories, and overall be a good and SAFE pilot. I received my monies worth and I have made some great friends along the way. I am in no way saying don't pay your dues, but just because there is a 300 hour pilot next to you don't just assume that he is from a PFT and unsafe because I assure you I will bust my hump as hard if not harder that the 1500 hour guy because I have aviation in my blood and I do not understand the word quit.

Just a sidenote to comment on CLR4ILS, yes there are those CFI's here in the PHX area that can not work an HSI just because they were never introduced to it, they may be good pilots, but they need to sit down and study because there is more to flying than turns around a point in the practice area or short field landings. How safe do you feel with that pilot next to you.

OK guys hope I did not wear this one out...I guess there is now .04 cents in the pot now.

 

[derg]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

In my opinion, it largely depends on the pilot.

I know a ERAU-grad that if I saw him in the cockpit, I'd literally turn around and walk back up the jetway.

But on the other hand, I had a student from New Delhi named Anil that could have (figuratively of course) given Chuck Yeagar and Al Haynes a run for their money.

 

[DE727UPS]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

CLR4ILS. I know a young man who, when he reaches 1200 total via CFIing and other things, I'd gladly put up against your 300 hour pilot. Since it's not a practical situation to bet on it's a moot point. I'll say this...you think your 300 hour guy would have better stick skills...I say NO WAY. Guys from schools like that don't get the chance to do real world stuff. My guy has had an engine failure in a light single engine plane and landed on a road. He has flown off the wet sand of a beach, too. He's a great stick and would blow away any 300 hour pilot from some academy....and I'd bet money on that. He'd lose on the academic side, I'll admit, since the academy puts such an emphsis ground training but if he was in a situation where he had to apply himself, such as a 121 ground school, he'd do fine.

"Anyway, I know you have alot of time under your belt and did it the old school way"

Yes I do....

"Remember, the military has been putting guy's in multi million dollar jet aircraft from day one"

Yes they have. The military is highly selective and has a rather extensive and expensive training program. As great as you might think FSI or whoever is....I think it hardly compares.

"Let's not forget that Flight Safety also trains a good portion of the military pilots as well"

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Air Force 757 guys used to, maybe still do, use the UPS for training. Does that mean we train AF pilots...I guess you could say that...

Military pilots learn to fly at FSI? Can anyone else confirm this?

 

[DE727UPS]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

FSIflyer...I don't think Pace or ASA is PFT, either. I just don't like the idea of 300 hour pilots in the right seat in a 121 operation.

 

[derg]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Hey, you know what, maybe we could make this into an event of some sorts.

Try and rent a Frasca simulator in a centralized location, each side donate $100 or so and have the bragging rights go to the winner and the proceeds go to a charity of the winner's choice.

I dunno, late night random thoughts at 0100.

 

[DE727UPS]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

A Frasca is hardly a useful tool in determining stick and rudder skills. I vote for a Cessna 120, on the beach, in a crosswind, with blonde chicks in bikini's as a distraction. How many 300 hour FSI grads can fly a taildragger or can instruct in seaplanes?

 

[derg]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Yeah! Wooo! Umm, wait, I gotta ask my wife.

 

[EDUC8-or]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me where the real world experience is between the airport and the practice area. Do you have any idea how many CFI's out there are building single engine pre-private VFR time all the way up to a companies mins??? I personally know a few CFI's here in Phoenix that have over 1000 hours with maybe 20 multi and NO CFII. These guy's are going from the airport to the practice area all day long in VFR with a pre-private student.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lemme see here, in just under 200 hours of dual given I've experienced and engine failure in flight, had a landing gear malfunction, and lost a vaccuum pump in the clouds. In each situation I didn't panic and simply ran my checklists and followed procedures. I get countless questions from students. If I don't know the answer, I look it up. Believe it or not, you can learn a lot that way. Maybe your 300 hour wonder pilots are good sticks, but I became a better pilot by watching my students make mistakes. It's a whole lot different when you're sitting there watching with no pressure on you while your student is flying maneuvers.

[ QUOTE ]
I had the opportunity to witness one of them ATTEMPT to fly MS flight sim and he did not even know how to use an HSI or RMI

[/ QUOTE ]

Now THAT'S funny! How dare he not know how to play game on a PC while he's out there flying REAL airplanes! I can ATTEMPT to fly the Wright Flyer or a 747, but it sure ain't gonna be pretty. What's the point of knowing how to use an HSI or RMI when it's not in your aircraft?

I understand that Flight Sim can be a valuable tool for instrument training and it's important to one day learn how to use an HSI or RMI, especially if that's going to be part of your sim ride at an interview. But I've also had student pilots who were frustrated after their first lessons because I covered their instruments. An important part of being a VFR pilot is keeping your head out of the cockpit. Flight Sim doesn't teach that.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

[ QUOTE ]

Military pilots learn to fly at FSI? Can anyone else confirm this?

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't get their primary flight instruction there, but they do go to FSI for type-specific training in certain aircraft (Gulfstream, King Air, etc.). Anytime they have to fly a non-military aircraft, they don't trust the "highly extensive and expensive" training program....

 

[ready2fly]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

To be honest, the pilots I've spoken to over the past three years all speak highly of Flight Safety....... The type-rating part.

As for the academy, they've all pretty much said "well - it has a good name...but what they charge for flight training is rediculous. Save your money. It's who you know and who knows you in this business."

Good enough advice for me.

It is my understanding that my chances of achieving a PPASEL, PPAMEL, IA, CSEL, CMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI... are JUST AS GOOD at the FBO level... and you know what? I'll get those ratings from the VERY SAME F.A.A. that FSI guys do.

Here's something else: Four of our nine instructors have have been hired to fly professionally in the past year (AirNet, charter in Nantuckett, two corporate guys flying Hawkers)... that's a pretty good average from a place that doesn't have a brand name.

I'd gladly put my skills up against anyone with the same ratings I have any day from anywhere. Know why? Not because I'm "cocky", but because I study... I work hard at this. I do my best to know my sh*t and I KNOW that I don't know everything.

I've had some fantastic instructors who also know their sh*t - and guess where they acquired that knowledge? Not an academy.

I have nothing against the academy route, but to say that ANYONE is a "better" stick when they come out is ony conjecture, opinion and nothing more.

To think you (generic "you") are a better "stick" - a more competent pilot - because you paid more $$ than somebody else and have a "brand name" on you shirt is a pretty naive assertion to make.

Take two individuals; one from Harvard Law, one from University of Florida Law - when they graduate - they both take the VERY SAME BAR EXAM and both have earned the right to be called "lawyers".

Outside of that - they know precisely diddly about how "real world" lawyering works until they do it.

Same correlation can be made with pilot certificates.

That's MHO. Like or not. I think a lot of folks will agree with me.

R2F

 

[sbe]

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

I've said this all along - to each his own. Now the CFI from AZ that can't use an HSI or RMI at 1000 hours - that's not cool, I'll give you that. But whose fault is that? The CFIs I know that teach part 61 do whatever they can to gain experience in complex and multiengine aircraft, they don't just fart around patterns all day with presolo students.

I've shown horses my whole life. There are the amateurs who go out and buy last years national champion for $50-100k and win like crazy instantly. There are those that find a $2300 horse at an auction in town, a diamond in the rough, and over the next 4 years build it into a national winner.

Now answer this question, which is more fun? (for the record, the second example of the $2300 horse was me.)

My point, which a lot of you are going to disagree with. Life is supposed to be about the journey, enjoying your life, having fun - I know there are seniority lists to get on and jobs to get in as quick as possible, but *personally* I say "where's the fire?" I've gone the FBO route, ala the $2300 horse. I'm working on making it the best I can, and I'm having a hell of a good time along the way doing all kinds of flying. Stick skills? it's what you make of it. I can easily see the scenario presented of the AZ CFI happening. But that's that own person's doing.

My approach may be all wrong, but from day one I said if I wasn't having a blast I wasn't going to do it. So I went out there & got a tailwheel endorsement, got a seaplane rating, go fly with friends in every kind of plane imaginable while building hours. About half the time I fly off a 20' wide, 2700' long, broken asphalt runway. It still scares the living crap out of me but I know it's made me a better pilot. I'd really like to do aerobatics, and I want to take a mountain flying course. Although I'm just now doing my Commercial I certainly know how to use a HSI and have used an RMI just enough to have a basic understanding of its use.

Knowledge can be assimilated over a short period of time. Stick skills in the true sense of the word take hundreds and thousands of hours to acquire and a certain portion of those skills can't be taught, they've just got to be acquired naturally through repetition and feel.

Everyone's mileage varies. Who knows if I had the money, might HAVE gone to somewhere like FSI. I didn't have that option, so I'm doing the best I can to try and make this work out, and make myself the best pilot I can be by the time I am 'hireable'. I'd *like* to think what I'm doing now is on the right track. I guess we'll find out...

Sarah