Gulfstream Int'l Flight Academy

Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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DE727UPS,

Give me your best CFI that meets ASA's Minimums at say around 1200 hours and I will take one of Flight Safety's ASA program graduates with say 300 hours and we will see which one has the best knowledge and stick skills. I will put my money on the Flight Safety guy hands down. Flight Safety's job is to take the 300 hour pilot and get them to the proficiency level of a "good" 1500 hour+ instrument pilot. You say they lack "real world experience" that they would have recieved between 300 and ASA's mins (1200). Tell me where the real world experience is between the airport and the practice area. Do you have any idea how many CFI's out there are building single engine pre-private VFR time all the way up to a companies mins??? I personally know a few CFI's here in Phoenix that have over 1000 hours with maybe 20 multi and NO CFII. These guy's are going from the airport to the practice area all day long in VFR with a pre-private student. I had the opportunity to witness one of them ATTEMPT to fly MS flight sim and he did not even know how to use an HSI or RMI. I couldn't believe it. Another one of these VFR "wonders" with "real world experience" got a call for an interview with Skywest and FAILED the written on the WEIGHT AND BALANCE portion of the test.

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CLR4ILS, I think the FSI sales pitch is going a bit too far here. Simple as this: No 300 hour pilot has real world experience in flying, they simply don't have the air-time to have gotten it. You may bag on Mr. VFR-CFI as not having any skills, but if they've been teaching primary, they may not be current on such things as FMS, HSI, etc. The onus is UPON THEM to insure they're ready for any eventuality, at least the minumum knowlege, for any interview. Then if they fail, it's their own fault. But your comparison is apples and oranges. The VFR CFI still has far more flight experience than the newly-minted 300 hour instrument student, whether he came from FSI or not. Think about this: I've got a fair amount of flight experience doing what I do, but take me tomorrow to Delta, toss me into a 767 left seat and give me a line check, and I guarantee I'd fail. I just don't have that experience doint that work, nor any experience with transport-category aircraft.

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Remember, the military has been putting guy's in multi million dollar jet aircraft from day one and you do not see the tax payers bitchin. May I also remind you that these tax payers are the ones flying on our regional aircraft.

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True, but the guy flying the T-38 on a solo cross country still has no experience. The military trains their pilots to follow specific procedures almost by rote, in the beginning of training.

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Let's not forget that Flight Safety also trains a good portion of the military pilots as well. If the government trusts FSI, so should you...

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ILS, don't EVEN start with the line of "the government knows what's good for us..........."
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Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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ILS, don't EVEN start with the line of "the government knows what's good for us..........."

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I have to agree there...

Everyone has really good points but I think we all can agree that Gulfstream is just not the place to be for an aspiring professional pilot
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And in the short amount of time I have been a CFI, and I know this applies to CLR4ILS as well (who is a CFI), we have learned alot and I also have had engine problems and instrumentation problems as well. Did what I was trained to do, follow the checklists and bring the airplane down to an airport (one was available) I do believe it has made me a better pilot.
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Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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Everyone has really good points but I think we all can agree that Gulfstream is just not the place to be for an aspiring professional pilot

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Yep. I think the whole discussion can be summed up best by socal's post on the 'changing careers' thread here - it's a time vs. money thing, and deciding which is more important.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

There have been some really good responses to this discussion. My point is that after say 100-200 dual given hours you have learned about as much as you need to interview for that first job to start flying the line. Yes, you may get the "unfortunate" experience of an engine failure or something of that sort while instructing, but let's remember that it is rare.

For the guy (and there are several out there) that did exceptionally well through his training and was able to APPLY AND CORRELATE what he has learned from the beginning rather than learn it ROTELY like most aviation students, programs like ASA's are a great opportunity.

I am a CFI/CFII/MEI and I will tell you that I do not need to teach the pre-private/commercial maneuvers, pilotage and dead reckoning, how to enter a pattern, how to use the radio's, normal and crosswind TKF/landings etc. over and over again to get myself to the application/correlation level required to get through indoc on the CRJ. We all know that instrument skills, Good instrument, FAR's, and WX knowledge, the ability to multi task and trouble shoot, and work in a crew environment are what is needed to get you in that complex turbine aircraft. Some have these skills at low time and some do not. Some can learn these skills at low time and some cannot. For the ones who cannot, then maybe teaching pre-private and commercial students for 1200+ hours is what they need.

I beleive and this is my opinion, that after a someone passes his/her CFI/CFII/MEI the only rating that is really beneficial is the CFII if you are headed for the airlines. Taking on some instrument students for 100-200 hours of dual given will ultimatley re-enforce your instrument skills before the interview, if you need the re-enforcing. If you are not able to pass a sim ride by that point then you probably chose the wrong proffession. So why go on to do another 1000 hours of instruction if you do not have to? That is my point!

I do believe that the instructor ratings were and are beneficial, but for me, anything that was not re-enforced before I started my initial CFI, was by the time I completed the three ratings. Is this making more sense now?

DE727UPS,
as for your CFI that can land a tail dragger on the beach in a crosswind...who cares? So he recieved the required time in the dragger to get the sign off and can handle a crosswind as a result of a land breeze or sea breeze. Who the hell is going to land on the beach unless it is in an emergency? As for your seaplane CFI, I have time on floats myself and I can tell you that it was not hard to handle the aircraft on TKF or landing with the right instruction. Hell, I did that as a pre-private. With little practice anyone on this site can handle those situations.

My point is that you can take a 300-500 hour pilot and get them to a proficiency level that more than satisfies the requirments of regional carriers. Like Doug said, and I agree, it does depend on the person. This 300 hour pilot when put into the CRJ SIM in indoc, in Atlanta, has been doing as good and alot of times better than the 1200+ hour "time building" CFI. Remember that I am a CFI and I know that I have not learned anything (other than pre-privates that don't study are a pain in the a$$) as a CFI that I didn't know when I finished the CIME program at FSA. A few things were re-enforced but that's it. You and everyone seem to forget that the CFI is not the one flying the plane, the student is. ALL CFI's complain about staying current and keeping up their stick skills. Why can't people see that instructing is simply a way for people to put time in their logbooks to get the interview. I call most of these people "time builders", not CFI's.

I do respect the Flight Instructor profession but it is not necessary for everyone. Enough said...ILS

I believe we are up to a dollar in the pot. Maybe we should donate it to Jetcareers...ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

A dollar in the pot...donate it to me and my beer drinking foundation. All JC people invited.
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Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

I think the real difference between being a 300 hour wonder and being a CFI with over 1000 hours is the experience gained from being PIC.

When you are a student building hours for your ratings, quite a bit of that time is spent with a CFI in the right seat. You are flying and making decisions, but the CFI is the 'Captain'. Every flight, I as the CFI decide where we will go and what will be accomplished. I have final authority to decide if the flight will happen at all. During the flight I constantly watch the student and observe what they are doing. I can usually spot mistakes long before they become a problem. In the 100's of hours that I have spend flying HSI and RMI equipped multi-engine airplanes on instrument flight plans, I have learned to make ATC do my bidding. Over time I have been able to catch ATC mistakes by listening to how they word instructions and what they are telling other aircraft. I am rarely suprised.

I have done quite a few instrument and commercial ratings in the last several years. Most of my students were very motivated and intelligent. I don't think that any of them should be in a jet with some Seneca time and a few hours of Level D sim. It could be true that they would be better than your CFI who spends his time in a 150 doing endless laps in the pattern. If someone does not take the initiative to learn new skills and expand their knowledge, that is their fault. A good instructor will not limit themselves to the Airplane Flying Handbook. I can guarantee that I have more knowledge of turbine aircraft systems and aerodynamics than most any 300 hours 'space cadet'. Most of it was gained after becoming a CFI.

The difference between an experienced CFI and a low time pilot is we are used to thinking farther ahead of the aircraft and have seen most of the mistakes that can be made. We are ready for them and are not afraid to speak up and voice our concern. I am not afraid to question a Captain with thousands of hours of experience if I see them doing something that does not seem right. I am used to working in a crew environment. I use 'CRM' every day. I also know what it means to be the PIC. When I am upgraded to Captain, I will have more experience as a leader. I will be better able to teach the new First Officer what it is to fly the line, because I have spent hundreds of hours teaching others as a CFI.

You may prefer a 300 hour pilot to fly you to your destination, I would prefer an experienced CFI. Someone who has more actual PIC time than the 100 or so hours of Solo the new commercial pilot gained while getting their ratings.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Soooo....what if you did SOME PFT and SOME instructing so you get a little of both worlds? Or is that dumb?
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

SBE-

I know two guys that breed and show Arabians that live in the DFW area. Both captains (one MD-88 and the other on the 767ER and would probably be able to offer some networking opportunities.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Doug - sbe is incommunicado until next Tuesday. Might want to PM her with that little tidbit.
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I'm SURE she'd be interseted.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

"Soooo....what if you did SOME PFT and SOME instructing so you get a little of both worlds? Or is that dumb?"

The issue isn't even not instructing, with me. While anyone who instructs is going to be better off in my eyes than someone who doesn't, even if they went through a PFT outfit; the idea of PFT is in it's self wrong, and nobody should do it.

I strongly believe it is not good for anyone's self or the whole (as pilots).
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

Ananoman,
you do have some good points but...my point was that a 300-500 pilot who learned at a level far above the average flight student can be and has been a more proficient instrument pilot in the CRJ than the 1200+ hour CFI that just meets the mins. I am a CFI and I can HONESTLY say that I have not learned anything new from instructing that I didn't already know at 300 hours. As a matter of fact my stick skills have slipped a little since I have not been flying much. My students do all of the flying.. BTW, I am not one of those instructors who try to snake in some flying on there students money. I had several who did that and it alway's pissed me off. They would say, you have this stuff down so let me fly for a minute and I would alway's have to tell them to break out their wallet. I promised myself long ago that I would not do that to my students. It is up to me to keep up my currency on my $$. Anyway, I did very well through all of my training and studied my ass off. My instructors all told me that I had natural stick skills and that I was one of their easy students that they did not have to explain stuff to over and over again. I am not bragging by any means. I pick things up fast, almost to fast. I and MANY OTHERS do not need to teach to be able to identify errors or stay ahead of the plane. The PIC time you aquire as a CFI is not the same as "real world flying" where you are constantly flying instruments X-country shooting numerous approaches in IMC. Any CFI that say's that this is anywhere near the majority of their flying, is lying their ass off. Most of a CFI's flying is done in VFR between the airport and the practice area performing the SAME maneuvers over and over and over again. I know because I do it. This is not beneficial in any way after a hundred or so dual given hours unless you are a complete idiot that hasn't paid attention during the first 400 hours. Yes, I can see the errors my students are making and yes I can have ATC do my bidding but I could do that at 300 hours. There are alot of guy's who have these abilities and for them the ASA program and mesa Pace program are great.

A good friend of mine who flies the MD11 for UPS went the CFI route and has told me several times that his flying abilities hit a plateau at around 400 hours. It wasn't until he got the opportunity to sit right seat in a Lear at around 700 hours that he started increasing his proficiency again. You can only be so far ahead of a single or light twin. How many hours do you need to get those planes down?any instructor who argues with this is either a slow learner and barely made it through their CFI ratings or know they are stuck instructing all the way to 2000 hours because they cannot drop the cash for a program like ASA's. There is nothing wrong with sticking it out as an instructor, all I am saying is that for those who can handle it and have the money, why not?

The people that get defensive about low time pilots entering a good program like ASA's or Mesa's PACE are the old school boy's that think you have to "earn" that position by doing turns around a point for 1500 hours even though THEY KNOW you did not learn anything new after a couple hundred dual given hours. In reality they are just pissed that they had to do it because they did not have the same oppotunity like ASA and PACE or the industry wasn't hiring ANYONE until you had 5000+ hours so they had no choice but to instruct for those 5000 hours. Anyone who completes a program like ASA's earns that F/O position in the CRJ by working their ass off to get to the proficiency and knowledge level to pass the training.

I could post the names and numbers of a UPS DC-8/ 747 / MD-11 captain, American Airlines 727 Check Pilot, UPS 757 Check Pilot, G-5 Captain, two F-16 pilots out of luke, Two Southwest Captains, Two Alaska Captains and a F/O, and several regional pilots who are all friends of mine that have said "if I had an opprotunity to do the ASA or PACE program when I was training I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat and you should too. This is why I get into it with people who say everyone should have to instruct until you meet the minimums. Some should and some don't need to. All of the above mentioned pilots have reached incredible levels of success in aviation and have great stories to tell about how they got there. Some were CFI's, some were in the military, and some were lucky and knew people. The one thing I have recieved from all of them is the same answer with regards to instructing VS a bridge program. That answer was, do it and get yourself in that RJ as fast as you can building real experience and seniority.

Anyway, I hope everyone who has read this, CFI or pilot for an airline, can relate to it in some way. I know I am right and and once again it does depend on the individual jumping on the program. Unfortunately, some bad apples slip through the cracks but eventually if they were not meant to be in the program then they will be weeded out.

Fly safe...ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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, two F-16 pilots out of luke, .....that have said "if I had an opprotunity to do the ASA or PACE program when I was training I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat and you should too.

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First off, Viper pilots are pansies
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, and I don't know of one fighter jock that would want to work for Mesa/ASA, but that's just of guys I know.

That being set straight........

I'm guessing now that the argument is whether to instruct or not to build hours. I got my CFI/I, now long expired, but never instructed. I built my time flying for a radio station, then working in single-engine piston cargo, single-engine turbine cargo, multi-pistion and multi-turbine cargo; all single-pilot and all day/night VFR/IFR PIC. Good experience overall, and I would agree that instruction is simply one means of building time, but not the only one.

But the time/experience still needs to be built. No 300 hour guy that's only done training, from ASA or PACE, is going to have the judgement and experience development to zip up to a right seat of a Lear. Military guys don't even have that coming out of pilot training with 260 TT. Granted, as right-seat self-loading baggage, he may only be the gear/flap raiser/extender and checklist challenger; or he may be a full-up flying right-seat baggage member of the flight crew. Either way, he still doesn't have the experience needed outside of a training environment where he's been "out of the nest" to experience the real world on his own, and more importantly, have the opportunity to have really scared himself. Instructing is just but one, of many ways, to build flight time and experience. Sure, cargo may be the PIC way to go like I did, but it's simply another way to go; granted that I built "hands-on" PIC by doing it.

Regarding instructing, if you're not learning anything from your CFI flights, there's something wrong. You may or may not learn something new about flying, or the ATC system that you didn't know before, but at the very least, you should take a lesson away each time about how to be a better CFI, and by doing so, you are improving your skills and learning something. Do chandelles necessarily translate to how to fly a 777? Not really. But what are you doing at this moment? You're teaching chandelle's, NOT studying for 777 ground school. That's something you (you meaning anyone) should do on their own time, and so you're prepared for whichever route you plan to go next.

CFI, like any flying job, is what you make of it. Would you say that a crop duster has no skills for landing an airline job? Maybe not with his daily routine, but if he wants to put the little extra on-the-side effort, he can make it happen.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

"do it and get yourself in that RJ as fast as you can building real experience and seniority."

Fine....just don't do it with only 300 hours.

"The people that get defensive about low time pilots....are the old school boy's...."

Actually...I only get defensive when people call me an old school boy. How about I call you someone who I have a basic serious disagreement with and leave it at that....your not gonna change my mind that 300 hour pilots should not be in the right seat of an airline jet.

"In reality they are just pissed that they had to do it because they did not have the same oppotunity"

Actually....I'm not pissed but I still think 300 hour F/O's in airline jets is a bad idea.

You can name all the airline jet buddies you want...I'll start asking the capts I fly with how many of them would like to sit next to a 300 hour F/O and see what they say.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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First off, Viper pilots are pansies
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, and I don't know of one fighter jock that would want to work for Mesa/ASA, but that's just of guys I know.

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Flying with a lot of ex-Viper pukes, I've got to agree with Mike on this one, there's no way I could see one of these guys making that statement.

Perhaps as an means to an end, but most are 'waiting it out' on active duty until things eventually 'turn around'.
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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The PIC time you aquire as a CFI is not the same as "real world flying" where you are constantly flying instruments X-country shooting numerous approaches in IMC. Any CFI that say's that this is anywhere near the majority of their flying, is lying their ass off.

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I agree with you to a point, but it depends on what kind of instructing you do. The last three months of my instructing job, I did almost exclusively instrument students. Of the just barely over 400 hrs. of dual given that I have, easily at least half that is instrument training "shooting numerous approaches in IMC." So apparently I am lying my ass off. Would you like a copy of my last logbook pages?

There is a reason they say that pilots with 300-500 hours are particularly vulnerable- regardless of what school they went to. And I think its just what you are describing- they are overconfident in their abilities.

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I am a CFI and I can HONESTLY say that I have not learned anything new from instructing that I didn't already know at 300 hours.

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Sorry to hear that. Either you were some kind of •!-hot wonder at 300 hours, or you are instructing for a bum place. No offense, but I'm pretty sure its not the former because theres no such thing. Get a couple hundred hours of dual given, and then find a place to go give instrument instruction on a daily basis.

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The people that get defensive about low time pilots entering a good program like ASA's or Mesa's PACE are the old school boy's that think you have to "earn" that position by doing turns around a point for 1500 hours even though THEY KNOW you did not learn anything new after a couple hundred dual given hours.

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In my entire instructing career, I think I did turns around a point on maybe four or five flights. How many hours of dual given do you actually have, anyways? Because it sure doesn't sound like you know the realities of being a successful CFI. You sound just like someone I know that got burnt out and sick of instructing after less than 100 hours of it.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I just disagree. The ASA program wouldn't be for me anyways, even if I did have the money. Speaking of which, even though they go through great lengths not to call ASA "PFT", what seperates you from me if you go through the program? And don't even say "skills" because thats BS. So what is the difference? Oh yeah, $25,000.

So how is that not PFT? (It was a rhetorical question, I don't want 50 people telling me their definitions, and where they draw the line on PFT- been there, read that way more times than I cared to). You are paying for a huge advantage over others who may well be a far better pilot but cannot afford it. Hell, if nothing else, you are buying yourself an interview and a few hours of Seneca time.

Just my $.04.
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Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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Actually...I only get defensive when people call me an old school boy.

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Now if he would have called you a good ol' boy, I'd see it as a compliment!

Just the good ol' boys. Never meanin' no harm. Beats all you ever saw been in trouble with the law since the day they was born. Straightenin' the curves. Flattenin' the hills. Someday the mountains might get 'em but the law never will. Makin' their way, the only way they know how. That's just a little bit more than the law will allow. Just the good ol' boys. Wouldn't change if they could. Fightin' the system like a true modern day Robin Hood.

YEE HAW!
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

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Actually....I'm not pissed but I still think 300 hour F/O's in airline jets is a bad idea.


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My point was that more times than not there is ZERO difference between that 1200 hour CFI and a GOOD 300-500 hour proficient pilot that adapted quickly in his training. These guy's are out there and they are not just in the military.

The people that run the ASA program in Atlanta have said that the Low time pilots that have come through the ASA program at Safety have not only been as knowledgable as the entry level guy's that meet the mins, but alot of times do better in the ground school and the SIM ride. So what they seem to be lacking in your eyes is the 900 hours of watching their student fly and pointing out the obvious. Can you honestly tell me that there is a major difference in the flying abilities of those two pilots? Usually not.

THIS IS AN ACTUAL QUESTION that maybe Doug or DE727 can answer because I do not know...how much does it cost to put a guy through indoc (ground school and level "D" SIM)? My point is that let's say it costs $20,000; do you really think that ASA would pay to train these individuals at 300+ hours if they were going to be a liability to their company? Get back to me on that cost and your opinion because I think that is a valuable question to think about.

To sum all of this post up... yes I do think that if a guy was getting real world experience like Mike D flying cargo like he did then yes that pilot is worth a hell of a lot more than the low time guy. However, I am not the only CFI with several hundred dual given hours that agrees that we are not learning anything new and what we are re-hashing is getting old. Even the instrument training gets old when you can teach your student like it is second nature. That is another point...Once you have got it down you do not need to keep re-hashing it with a student. At that point it is time to tkae those instrument skills and knowledge to a more complex aircraft. The only challenge anymore is to ride your student to try hard to get your pass rate as high as you can. Maybe I am bored with these light singles. I am positive I am not the only one. Every CFI I talk to say's hell yea, I would love to get hired at low time and go to the RJ.

I will agree with EATSLEEPFLY when he said that his instrument instruction was golden the last three months of his instructing. I do not know very many instructors who have alot of instrument students at one time but I am sure they are out there. That is great for them.

Anyway, we all have our own opinions and they will never change. If by chance you "veteran guy's" (notice I didn't say "old school") get the chance to fly in a high performance twin or jet with a low time pilot and are impressed with their ability to handle the aircraft, fly the instruments extremely well, work like a captain, and make the decisions, then make sure you give credit because these guy's are out there and you may fly with one someday

ILS
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

"Anyway, we all have our own opinions and they will never change"

Finally, something you've said that I can agree with....
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

If I owned an airline and could get a 300 hr pilot to pay my company or a company I "closely associate with" $25,000 to bring them up to speed with a 1200hr pilot, I'd do it in a heartbeat. It's just another way for the airline to make more profit. I'd rather MAKE $15,000 to gain 1000 hrs experience as a CFI than PAY $25,000 for a crash course on what a CFI learns in 1000 hrs.

Didn't learn anything as a CFI that you didn't know as a 300hr pilot? Wow, Never had to think of a new way to explain a concept to a student? Never had to take the controls during a landing to save your life? Never had to expain how NDB's work over and over and over again?

I've learned a lot as a CFI, experience I would never learn in a bridge program. If you didn't learn anything as a CFI, you probably didn't let the students fly the plane
 
Re: Gulfstream Int\'l Flight Academy

If you are tooling around in a 150 for hundreds of hours, doing nothing but preprivates, you may be right. For myself, I think that I have learned a thing or two during the 400 hours I have spent giving dual in multi-engine aircraft. Teaching students for CFI, CFII and MEI ratings didn't hurt either. If you think your job sucks, get another one. Maybe you can go to a FBO that has better aircraft and does more advanced ratings. Maybe you can go be a slave for a 135 operator. If you really don't like what you are doing, you are not doing yourself or your students any favors by staying.
 
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