Furlough Estimates

Last year senior captains were telling me to leave Eskimo for United and Delta. Saying there will never be a furlough again.

What a bunch of out of touch jokers

Yeah those dudes you flew with are idiots. Don’t take advice from people that are obviously that ignorant about the industry. DL or UA still woulda been a better move than staying here, that recall and a few decades to go would put you much further ahead. Oh well, coulda woulda shoulda.
 
Last year senior captains were telling me to leave Eskimo for United and Delta. Saying there will never be a furlough again.

What a bunch of out of touch jokers


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Flew with guys that said the very same thing. I'd always retort with a "well ya never know do ya?". Good thing I only buy discounted bicycles and not boats/planes.
 
Last year senior captains were telling me to leave Eskimo for United and Delta. Saying there will never be a furlough again.

What a bunch of out of touch jokers


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You don't know how things will end until you set your parking brake when you retire.

Considering the international exposure United/Delta has compared with Alaska, they weren't wrong to suggest going to a place with a larger international presence. Also, if you look at what is going on at foreign airlines, there will be great opportunities for the United/Delta/'Merican's to capitalize on that demand once borders open up and folks start traveling. We just all need to get to that point and that is why we all should be hoping for a Cares 2.

Finally, while I agree some senior folks at all airlines do need to retire, they were looking out for their coworkers (YOUR) interest, offering advice. Way to be appreciative of that advice during an event NONE of us could see coming last year.
 
Way to be appreciative of that advice during an event NONE of us could see coming last year.

None of us may have seen a crisis this severe coming, but we'd been overdue for a recession since 2016 or so. There have been huge numbers of furloughs throughout our industry at least once a decade, for most of the industry's history. Anyone who thought there'd never be furloughs again was wildly out of touch with reality.
 
None of us may have seen a crisis this severe coming, but we'd been overdue for a recession since 2016 or so. There have been huge numbers of furloughs throughout our industry at least once a decade, for most of the industry's history. Anyone who thought there'd never be furloughs again was wildly out of touch with reality.

I expected more furloughs. I never imagined the depth of furloughs. 30% of the company? Absurd.


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Way to be appreciative of that advice during an event NONE of us could see coming last year.

On this one point I would have to disagree. While no one could have predicted the details surrounding this whole Sharknado poop show that we are living through right now, I went to enough ALPA E&FA Briefings to know that we have been overdue for the 'unpredictable yet predictable event.'

It had been hurting my soul about the number of furlough notices going out. I just hope everyone is going to be allright. I went throgh my 2nd furlough back in '10, it was miserable at the time. It also led me to where I am today.
 
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I don’t want to sound like the naive optimistic person here, but those that are at a major staring at furlough, just remember the job is still yours. Whether that furlough is one year, two years or five. Throughout your career you will still be okay. The average major airline pilot salary is well above that of most that make a good life for themselves. The guys and gals that are at the regionals shutting down who I’m really concerned about, especially the lifers at a place like XJT that made the decision during the last downturn to stay put for stability.

Just remember a ton of people in this country are staring at some grim short term options, but this as all downturns will pass. Stay safe, stay healthy and just focus on what you need to do to keep the blue side up in the meantime.

Your heart is in the right place. The thing to remember though is that a lot of the recent new-hires at the Big 3 the past couple years, got there after spending 10+ years at the regionals. Prior to about 2013, there wasn’t this huge wave of hiring like we saw until January 2020. Many of them became check airmen, worked in the training department, stood in line for hours at job fairs to finally land that dream job. Now they’re in their mid to late 40’s staring down a furlough for who knows how long. You start running out of time to make those lost years up. It’s awful to see.
 
Yeah those dudes you flew with are idiots. Don’t take advice from people that are obviously that ignorant about the industry. DL or UA still woulda been a better move than staying here, that recall and a few decades to go would put you much further ahead. Oh well, coulda woulda shoulda.

Assuming that I could actually get a call. I got a TBNT from Allegiant before Eskimo called.


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We doing this again?

Now we've seen the first whack at it from the Legacies. Todd thinks that's just round one. Its fair to ask where he thinks it's going from here. Like him or not he has a depth of experience in ALPA that most of us don't. So while I don't always agree with him, I never dismiss him.


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Now we've seen the first whack at it from the Legacies. Todd thinks that's just round one. Its fair to ask where he thinks it's going from here. Like him or not he has a depth of experience in ALPA that most of us don't. So while I don't always agree with him, I never dismiss him.


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I'm not dismissing his experience, just curious why we are repeating his opinion over and over when he has absolutely nothing invested in this industry anymore. That's like calling in the MEC from 20 years ago and saying "when will I get my job back" like they have any idea other than an opinion.

Todd has maintained his doomsday opinion for months. We may never hire. Half of the pilots are going to the streets. Decade long recovery. Mergers. Consolidation. Everyone is in massive trouble. Fear. You may never fly again. Also, he doesn't wear a mask.
 
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It's such a complex problem that no one knows really knows the answer...

10 pages or so back I went on a rant about staffing numbers. The biggest question is: what are the load factors 3-6-9-12 months ahead. How many block hours are being flown.

Couple that with training costs, displacement cost, contractual furlough benefits and that becomes a pretty fixed number for the air carrier.

We are flying "X" - we need "Y" pilots to cover that.

No one knows or is saying what "X" actually is going to be. They probably don't know, so people are taking informed guesses. That's where the decision is going to end up. Not what anyone wants to hear, but it's the reality.

The number I kept hearing was '15-22% smaller' industry wide until the recovery caused the airlines to grow back to 2020 flying and beyond. (this was before the 2nd 'lockdown')

That was the most helpful number (for me) for awhile because it told me that with aggressive mitigation the actual furlough number would be low. Obviously it's not playing out that way today. My shop and 2 others were able to mitigate effectively till the Summer '21 #'s are known. This was a huge deal for those of us at those shops. 6 more months of damage control. As we have seen this week, other carriers are being more aggressive in a way that no one wants to see. It is my hope that those numbers go down between now and October.

Everything is so dynamic in this equation. Consumer confidence in flying and reopening is the key. If you know all of those, you'll be able to project staffing needs and know where we will be as an industry. Where the recovery begins and the shape of the recovery.

This just plain sucks. I finally thought we might have broken the mold. After 2 furloughs (and 2 BK's) I had no desire to go through this or see anyone go through this again. What really freaks me out is that I'm scheduled for one more downturn at a minimum before retirement.
 
You don't know how things will end until you set your parking brake when you retire.

Considering the international exposure United/Delta has compared with Alaska, they weren't wrong to suggest going to a place with a larger international presence. Also, if you look at what is going on at foreign airlines, there will be great opportunities for the United/Delta/'Merican's to capitalize on that demand once borders open up and folks start traveling. We just all need to get to that point and that is why we all should be hoping for a Cares 2.

Finally, while I agree some senior folks at all airlines do need to retire, they were looking out for their coworkers (YOUR) interest, offering advice. Way to be appreciative of that advice during an event NONE of us could see coming last year.

This is true. Let me count... I’ve cycled from “YOU HIT THE JACKPOT!” To “Dude, are you staying?” and back to “YOU HIT THE JACKPOT” about four times in 22 years. It’ll be two or three more times before I hang it up.
 
You don't know how things will end until you set your parking brake when you retire.

Considering the international exposure United/Delta has compared with Alaska, they weren't wrong to suggest going to a place with a larger international presence. Also, if you look at what is going on at foreign airlines, there will be great opportunities for the United/Delta/'Merican's to capitalize on that demand once borders open up and folks start traveling. We just all need to get to that point and that is why we all should be hoping for a Cares 2.

Finally, while I agree some senior folks at all airlines do need to retire, they were looking out for their coworkers (YOUR) interest, offering advice. Way to be appreciative of that advice during an event NONE of us could see coming last year.

That’s just the thing. Those guys had no idea how hard it was to get hired at a major or even Eskimo for that matter. On top of it they were trying to get jr people to leave to strengthen their position with management that they were underpaid. It was when they were passing around #5 bag tags.

5th best pay...

It was lambs to the slaughter and I’m eternally grateful that I didn’t listen to their selfish asses.


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You don't know how things will end until you set your parking brake when you retire.

Considering the international exposure United/Delta has compared with Alaska, they weren't wrong to suggest going to a place with a larger international presence. Also, if you look at what is going on at foreign airlines, there will be great opportunities for the United/Delta/'Merican's to capitalize on that demand once borders open up and folks start traveling. We just all need to get to that point and that is why we all should be hoping for a Cares 2.

Finally, while I agree some senior folks at all airlines do need to retire, they were looking out for their coworkers (YOUR) interest, offering advice. Way to be appreciative of that advice during an event NONE of us could see coming last year.


I don't get it though. I've had a couple FOs complain about other CAs asking them why they still here, why not go to Delta, AA, United. Honestly, that's tiring. As a CA there is no way I'm gonna subject the FO to that kinda talk and belittle them for why they're here. I figure the FO is a grown adult who can make their own decisions and if they are sitting here in that seat, they have a reason to be here.

CARES 2. IATA and Boeing+Airine CEOs predict 2024 before we recover to 2019 levels, maybe even later. You want payroll support for the next 4 years? It's clear 2019 traffic levels are not coming back anytime soon. How do you justify the tax payers footing the bill to keep people employed during a pandemic where the demand simply isn't there to justify that level of employment? I agree PSP is not just for pilots, it's for all employee groups at the airline. But certainly you realize that it looks problematic when it comes to the pilots and the general average public? At the big 3 major airlines once you're beyond 1st yr pay, you're making six figures. Something will irk the general public when six figure earners have their hands open for a handout, while their lower/mid level regular non-aviation jobs have evaporated or been reduced and their $600/week has run out.


DL or UA still woulda been a better move than staying here, that recall and a few decades to go would put you much further ahead. Oh well, coulda woulda shoulda.

?? I don't think these furloughs are coming back anytime soon. Then you get recalled to the bottom of the bottom. Sub 3 yr legacy airline CAs are the exceptions. Not the norm. Needles to say, those days are gone for quite some time to come.
 
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What's your prediction?

Passenger numbers aren’t budging from the mid-20% range compared to last year. That is entirely unsustainable without massive cuts or massive federal subsidies. Assuming the subsidies don’t come, I predict the seniority lists are half their original size by the end of next year, and liquidation of major carriers is a very real possibility.

People are thinking there is going to be a vaccine or some other miracle treatment in short order that will get everything opened up and drive travel demand again. I’m sorry, but that just isn’t realistic.
 
Passenger numbers aren’t budging from the mid-20% range compared to last year. That is entirely unsustainable without massive cuts or massive federal subsidies. Assuming the subsidies don’t come, I predict the seniority lists are half their original size by the end of next year, and liquidation of major carriers is a very real possibility.

People are thinking there is going to be a vaccine or some other miracle treatment in short order that will get everything opened up and drive travel demand again. I’m sorry, but that just isn’t realistic.
Passenger traffic, in year over year terms is at or above 30% every day of the week except Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and is currently growing very slowly. That's not terribly encouraging, but your assertions are false. Year over year passenger percentages were growing quite nicely until the big summer new case percentages exploded which shows that demand is there but got held down by America's poor hygiene and fear. Now that is subsiding really nicely. We also have a better idea of just how likely one is to get the virus on an airplane which is roughly 1/2 of the probability that you'll be struck by lightning in your lifetime. Unfortunately, we are facing a traditionally weak time of year for passenger traffic so absolute passenger numbers are going to suuuuck in October and November. There is no denying that. However, there is no reason to believe that international travel won't be opening soon or that people armed with more knowledge and less fear won't be traveling next year. The tristate quarantine list just got pared back 10% this week, and it's going to continue to shrink. I know you'll come back with "but the economy at large is going to be in a serious depression and nobody will have any money and hyperinflation is going to suffocate us." OK. I'll come back with American GDP will grow in Q4 2020. The Fed addressed inflation yesterday. It's a real thing. Remember when you told everybody in March or April to borrow as much money as possible because of hyperinflation? How's that working out?
 
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