Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
+1 Internet points for the firefly reference.
First officer training program?
- Thread starter Treblesum81
- Start date
FlyingPoke
I'm here to help...
For being so methodical and thought-out you really haven't done any homework whatsoever. Your blind desire to do this pay-to-play, no matter what those who know better than you say, is proof that you'll do what you want. So, why even ask?
I refuse to help someone who asks for help but has all the answers. But I will say, multi-engine time can be as cheap as your $100/hr pay-to-play scheme. If you want to figure out how, you are surely more than capable.
Treblesum81
Well-Known Member
What about the ability to put your feet on the ground around the world for a few days every month. I know layovers are not vacations, but that's one of the big draws for me for those international routes. As for the boring part, I've always figured that I'd counter that with some flying for myself on the side, but then again, I'm a little more coo coo for cocoa puffs about aviation than the average bear.
Treblesum81
Well-Known Member
Since when have I expressed a blind desire to do the program? I may not be willing to dismiss it out of hand as quickly as some of you would like to see me do it, but I'm open to any and all alternatives other than instructing. As for your second point, I have looked into multi-engine time on many occasions and its never been as cheap as your $100/hr statement. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but aside from a few hints about finding a partner or buying my own plane, all I've ever been able to find locally are high cost rentals that the flight schools won't even allow out the door unless its for the purpose of instruction.
FlyingPoke
I'm here to help...
But, the bottom line is that you enjoy what you're doing overall, and that's all that really matters. The whole different strokes for different folks thing.
Again, different strokes for different folks. Some people like the international thing. Myself, I've been to too many crappy places the world over in the past decade and a half, both peaceful as well as not so peaceful, that I just enjoy being in the U.S. of A, and at home in AZ or the southwest. Have had enough of anything international.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Definitely just need to research and make sure they have an exemption for 61.51 in their opspec. If they do, it is loggable. If not then it isn't. Looking at the FAA's site there are no part 135 cargo companies that have the exemption other than AMF.
Not sure how Airnet did it when they hired into the right seat.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
Stopped reading 5 pages in, so sorry if this has been said, but to the OP, your best bet is to network. This is the place to do it. Seriously. Don't want to be a CFI? 99% of the replies here have implied you would be doing. Even though some people out there don't care, many do, so chances are it will hurt more than help. But there is hope, low time jobs do exist. They're just hard to find. How do you find these jobs? You make friends, you get involved in this community and others like it, you develop relationships and make your goals known. Results won't be instant, but eventually, opportunities will start to unfold for you.
I once looked at AMFs pay to play program as something I wanted to do. I was 18, didn't know any better. I came here, I learned the error of my ways very quickly. I'd recommend you do the same. Most of the members on this board love to help out wherever they can, but only if you give them a reason to. Please take advantage of it.
I once looked at AMFs pay to play program as something I wanted to do. I was 18, didn't know any better. I came here, I learned the error of my ways very quickly. I'd recommend you do the same. Most of the members on this board love to help out wherever they can, but only if you give them a reason to. Please take advantage of it.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
With your responses of thinking you won't enjoy corporate because you're going to be treated like a bus driver, and also not enjoying the people, I again think you are going to struggle in any job aviation or not.
News flash - in any pilot job you're being paid and will be treated like a bus driver. That's what you are. You're either mowing the sky (survey) flying a tornado (skydivers) flying from point a to b and back (regional). In all these cases you're the driver, not a glorified astral professor, physicist, Nobel prize winner, or congressman. You move metal. Get over it.
Unless you're the president of a company you're going to be treated like an employee, which means a warm body who can get the work done. Take off your rose glasses but most importantly learn to enjoy people.
The way your posts come across is that you have people issues, that's a problem in this industry.
News flash - in any pilot job you're being paid and will be treated like a bus driver. That's what you are. You're either mowing the sky (survey) flying a tornado (skydivers) flying from point a to b and back (regional). In all these cases you're the driver, not a glorified astral professor, physicist, Nobel prize winner, or congressman. You move metal. Get over it.
Unless you're the president of a company you're going to be treated like an employee, which means a warm body who can get the work done. Take off your rose glasses but most importantly learn to enjoy people.
The way your posts come across is that you have people issues, that's a problem in this industry.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Hahaha. As a long haul airline pilot, from my understanding, you are usually there in a layover city for minimum rest, or a zombie due to time changes and trying to re-acclimatize, if you actually try to switch time zones every time. Maybe some of the long haul guys can chime in on that.
As for business jets and the "attitude", I fly for some very down to earth people. Yes, there are bad apples out there. There are also a ton of crazy people that fly on airlines.
My last rotation, I had 3 days on the beach in Greece, and 4 days in Nice, France. We are probably heading to Geneva for a few days soon. We go skiing every winter, and in Feb or March spend a full week in the Maldives. I would say our layovers are decent. To each his or her own. Enjoy the pay-to-play scheme you seem very set on.
I keep trying to find jobs back in the US just due to being tired of 5000+ mile commutes, and there are none that will give me as much time off, or pay anywhere close to what I am making. I work 30/30 schedules. Yes, 30 on gets old quick, but 30 uninterrupted days off every other month makes it worth it. Enjoy the 777. I'll take business jets all day long...
z987k
Well-Known Member
Well, add me to the list that will throw you out of the interview when I learn how you got that time. Even if it's 15 years later, you now have 5000TT, and 250 of it is this crap. GTFO!
Like Cal Goat, I also did not CFI. Meat missiles for maybe 200 hours one summer, then survey. I flew something like 140 hours a month doing survey, which I don't even think is legal for CFI's.(not going to do the math). The company I flew survey for regularly would take wet commercials. When I was there, they even picked up a guy the day of his checkride, but he did do his training with them, they're a flight school to.
15 months after getting my Multi com(~300tt), I was flying for a freight company(I think I had 1300tt), and at the time could have gone to a regional instead(but I have self respect)
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Like Cal Goat, I also did not CFI. Meat missiles for maybe 200 hours one summer, then survey. I flew something like 140 hours a month doing survey, which I don't even think is legal for CFI's.(not going to do the math). The company I flew survey for regularly would take wet commercials. When I was there, they even picked up a guy the day of his checkride, but he did do his training with them, they're a flight school to.
15 months after getting my Multi com(~300tt), I was flying for a freight company(I think I had 1300tt), and at the time could have gone to a regional instead(but I have self respect)
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Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
HEY!15 months after getting my Multi com(~300tt), I was flying for a freight company(I think I had 1300tt), and at the time could have gone to a regional instead(but I have self respect)
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Giving glider rides, I will say that is the nicest anyone ever gets. At least every other customer tells you that you have the best job on earth. If I were getting paid for it, I would be inclined to agree
And before anyone says anything about "cheapening the profession," yes - it is true commercial operators charge two or three times what we do for soaring rides. A flying club is a different animal. By doing intro flights for the general public, it subsidizes the operation for members like me. They also paid for my CFI/Tailwheel and a few other things, in addition to my first paid teaching gig.
There isn't one right answer out there, but there are lots of good options.
FriendlySkies
Well-Known Member
It breaks my heart when someone uses this forum for an honest question, and he gets ridicule for asking. So what if you disagree with "pay to play" programs, that's your opinion. Look, the third response to his post was, "I don't like you already"... Of course he's going to be defensive after this, anyone would. Take a look of how you got to where you are. This career is hard and frustrating. Never forget the aviators who went an extra step to give you useful advice or walked in your resume for that "dream" job.
Greg, if want PM me. I will gladly try to help
Ryan
Greg, if want PM me. I will gladly try to help
Ryan
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
I disagree, this thread has been pretty civil with the reasons why/why not to enter into a program like this and it essentially has been a direct answer to his question. Reference:
And I believe that is what the collective JC community is attempting to do - guide the OP to making an informed decision. Regardless if the OP enters into a program at least they will have the perspective of those who have been in the industry longer or have experience in different areas.
FriendlySkies this is really the part which has not been addressed too much and there is a reason people aren't leading the OP in the direction of KeyLime, Gulfstream or other programs that are psuedo expensive and stir up emotions in people - because they're are viable alternates to a pay-to-right-seat program.
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
I have to agree with Moxie pilot on this one. If the OP did the least bit of searching on this and other forums he would see that these kind of posts are "flame bait". Thats why some of the replies were implying that this had to be a "troll" just to get people riled up.
We are all just trying to help and he has shown that he isn't particularly interested in listening to anyone. And on top of that he seems like a guy who knows/understands very little about his profession of choice. We are all just trying to help. I wish some people had been more harsh/straight-forward to me about things in parts of my life. He should be thankful.
We are all just trying to help and he has shown that he isn't particularly interested in listening to anyone. And on top of that he seems like a guy who knows/understands very little about his profession of choice. We are all just trying to help. I wish some people had been more harsh/straight-forward to me about things in parts of my life. He should be thankful.
This is the part that many don't seem to grasp in a certain way: If, once you've given said advice to the OP, and he doesn't want to listen, then he should do as he plans (and is probably already set in). If it works for him, fine. If it doesn't, well then.....he was told so.
But continually hammering the guy in the head isnt going to make a difference. He's going to do whatever it is he's going to do.
I tend to try and worry about what's on my own plate of food. If someone asks for suggestions, Ill give them; but after that, they have to make and live with their own decisions.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
It hurts everyone else, so in this particular case, I can understand the vocal response. There should probably be a sticky here with rational explanations as to why paying for experience does not help you much, and why paying for a job hurts everyone.
It was a fair question, and deserves a thought out answer.
Here goes:
1) ACTING PIC time is really the only type of flying that most good employers care about. If that's not what your are doing, your are getting something that is not of particular value.
2) Without extremely good knowledge of the systems in the aircraft you are logging time in, even logged time is pretty much less than worthless. It might be great that your buddy let you log 100 hours in a King Air - but in an interview, unless you know the systems in that thing cold, it probably won't help you land a job. You'll definitely get asked about it.
That isn't to say "don't do it" if the opportunity presents itself, but don't think it is going to help you much finding employment.
3) Paying for experience like this is even worse. Not only is the experience not terribly useful for you, you are making it that much harder for someone that is qualified to get that job. Because now they might have to deal with paying for experience too (to compete with you), or in the worst case, you are paying to do a job someone would otherwise be paid for.
4) A simple test. If someone offered you $8/hour to do this flying for the next 10 years - would you? If not, why is it so valuable now?
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
That's actually why I enjoy long-haul. Flying the jet is pretty boring most of the time (though, I really love the airplane, and enjoy turning off the automation and *flying* whenever possible), but I've been to some pretty neat places. Germany, England, Italy, Greece, Japan, and France come to mind. Also included on the list are about 15-16 other not-so-nice countries, but that's just part of the experience in the supplemental segment of the industry (usually flying around people who are keen on taking long walks on the beach with automatic weapons).
That said, if you end up at a major flying the 777, you're probably going to end up going to the same 5-6 airports over and over. Most guys I talk to who fly widebodies at the major carriers do it for the pay/QOL, not for the international travel.
Indeed!
First year was like that for me...I was pretty much a zombie. I've gotten much more used to it now, so I can usually bring myself to go out if I'm with a good crew.