Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Chances are the instructor in such a type of aircraft is able to give that experience to you. Overall it may not be a bad idea as a 135 cargo environment can show you what weather really is like on a bad day.
First officer training program?
- Thread starter Treblesum81
- Start date
WacoFan
Bigly
Yeah - I just don't want to be one of those dorks that fly their family into the ground because I've a lack of experience/judgement/etc. I think it would be handy for anyone that could do it.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
PFT is when someone goes to out and buys a type with a guarantee of a job. How is this even the same thing as buying a block of flight time from a 135 single pilot cargo operator. How is it different from just renting a Seminole and cruising around the country?
There is no difference. Obviously if a second pilot is required we would have issues, but they aren't required where these programs exist.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I know a few folks to talk to about that.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I suppose you're right, though such time would be of minimal use, and possibly not loggable (not 100% on the last point, so nobody come at me with claws out!). Pilots need to actually learn their craft, not just go through the motions to build time to meet minimums.
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
In order to log the time, there are two options:
#1: The aircraft doesn't require a Type and the CA is an MEI. Even then it might be weird if you log a bunch of PIC.
#2: The aircraft is Type-required single-pilot certified. Then you can only log the time as "Dual Received" for the time you are at the controls.
...Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not referencing anything just going off of memory.
#1: The aircraft doesn't require a Type and the CA is an MEI. Even then it might be weird if you log a bunch of PIC.
#2: The aircraft is Type-required single-pilot certified. Then you can only log the time as "Dual Received" for the time you are at the controls.
...Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not referencing anything just going off of memory.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
That seems very sad to me. Especially your later account about that poor captain and his 172. I actually felt a twinge of sadness for that fella.
Nothing against you personally, but I can't help saying it: I think a minimum qualification for a job as a pilot should be that one loves aviation, and specifically that one loves flying. I really do wish that people who saw it as "just a job" would leave the profession and find other "just jobs" that offer similar pay/QOL... and there are many.
I know that my opinion isn't necessarily in the majority, from comments I've seen on here in the past... but there's a large skills overlap between aviation and most professional trades, many of which pay significantly better. Those industries often need people... whereas aviation most certainly does not "need" more pilots. But there are plenty of pilots who "need" jobs in aviation.
... and I still feel sorry for that poor captain. It's like kicking a puppy. And you were annoyed at -him-? Man. :<
(Granted, it's a 172, but still...)
-Fox
A-300F4-622R
Well-Known Member
I don't think you really have any idea of what I make or what my QOL and benefits are. If you do and a non-flying job really exists that equals my current situation, I'll gladly leave and make room for an aviation romantic like yourself.
WacoFan
Bigly
But even an aviation cynic like yourself would love to fly a Lodestar I bet.
A-300F4-622R
Well-Known Member
Honestly, I have no desire to fly something like that anymore. Been there done that (plenty of time in Beech 18 and vintage bi-planes). I'll leave the Lodestar to you romantics.
WacoFan
Bigly
It's like you're dead inside or something. Like a great sadness has descended on you or something and sucked all the good things in life (Beech 18's, Biplanes) out. Please tell me you're not into boats - I may have to ask Doug or another mod to ban you.
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
Not to burst anyones bubble... But its always "just a job" after a while. I've been all over the North America in a tour van more than once and even playing music becomes a job after a time. After that I worked for a world famous tattoo company with the best/easiest job in the world. Help customers, work occasionally, and play lots of video games/hangout with your best friends for hours every day. Not to mention not having to show up to work until Noon. I remember those days fondly. However, I do love aviation more than any other endeavor I've undertaken in my life. I just had great jobs before so I know that eventually it is possible to become disillusioned if you set yourself up for it. Just my .02
A-300F4-622R
Well-Known Member
It's not that I "hate" aviation, it's that I have other interests besides flying that I'd rather do on my time off.
Cal Goat
Prestige Worldwide™
I lived it. I got hired with less than 300 hours. 500 is reasonable considering they're going to set you loose with an airplane and pay you to do it for the first time in your career. For 700 hours, they should be paying pretty good to mow lawns in the sky. Have you searched and applied to any aerial survey companies? The longer you sit on your thumbs and whine about how you don't want to instruct, it just means more pilots who are willing to bust ass are going to take jobs you could have potentially had.
So that is my response. It's happening all over the country with a few different companies. The money ain't great, but it does pay and most of these operations are flying all over the lower 48 (and occasionally AK and HI). The opportunities are yours to lose.
Treblesum81
Well-Known Member
I wasn't aware such programs existed. All I've ever heard from people who I respect as being knowledgeable around my flight school and college was that no flight school would ever just rent out twins for any other reason than getting your multi or MEI. I would be interested in how the costs compare though, as the FO programs generally work out to around $100 per hour, while the per hour cost to rent a Seminole at my flight school, which has the cheapest rental fees in the area, is $215/hr. If these programs you speak of have similar costs, that's more than double the expense for the same amount of hours.
Ahh, to have made the decision to get into aviation that many years ago... It would have negated any need for this discussion now.
Short S-25, Convair 580, and Hawker Siddeley HS-748....
I guess that brings up the question: Even if done in a "more respectable way" where a second pilot is NOT required and thus not undermining anything, is that dual received time worth anything in advancing me toward a part 135 job or something else that requires at least double what I've got now?
As I've said before, I'm still a few weeks from finishing my multi, so unless you're trying to tell me otherwise, I've always been told that it does absolutely no good whatsoever to bother applying for a pilot job for which you don't qualify yet.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
You asked me earlier about me being full time prior to age 32. I went to Riddle back in 90-94, got out and ended up in the Navy working on computers for 9 years.
I turned 30 with 200TT and got my first job in aviation when my wife got me a skydive certificate. I was joking around with the owner and asked if he needed a pilot. He said, "Come talk to me afterwards." My first true job in aviation was with meat missiles. I was full time Navy, part time skydive pilot, and working on my CFI. I ended up instructing more than throwing meat missiles, but still did it part time.
Why did I wait until 30 to get my CFI? Because, just like you, I didn't think instructing was for me. Since then, I have had 2 "full time" CFI jobs, 1 part time CFI job (weekends, while still full time Navy, and weekdays "full time" at another school), 2 part time meat missile jobs, did aerial survey for a season, and then went on to Airnet. I am now a Captain on a G-450 flying out of Moscow.
You may be set on the 777, but I was set on flying for American Airlines. I interned with them, and AA was in my blood. Now, you couldn't pay me enough to go to an airline. Plus, airlines don't pay that well anymore. You also get bankruptcies, etc. Yes, corporate aviation has the same problems, but my time overseas and time flying jets actually gets me some where, unlike the airlines and the seniority system.
YMMV, but yes, I was pretty much exactly where you are.
DPApilot
GUYSH! GUYSH! GUYSH!
Granted this is NOT PFT/PFJ depending on the company, the issue comes in when you look at the legalities of logging it. Honestly, 250 hours of some time in the KingAir or the likes isn't worth it. I agree with looking into cross countries and time building like that.
Treblesum81
Well-Known Member
I understand that over time, goals and priorities may chance... that's why I'm becoming a pilot at 32 instead of an industrial designer, but so far the 777 has been a stable goal and one which will put me on a good career path if I stick to it. I've considered corporate aviation, and while it might be interesting to fly a P-180 or a G-450 around the world, I'm also not so sure I'd enjoy the people all that much. I've heard more than a few stories from long-time corporate pilots, and, while there are a fair share of employers / passengers who are enjoyable to fly for, there are also a lot that apparently treat you like a flying limo driver and I feel like I'd have a problem with that, even if that isn't all that much different than an over-glorified flying bus driver. Honestly though, I'm much less concerned with that goal than I am in making the right decisions now to put me in a position to get there and then have enough time to enjoy it.
The issue I'm probably going to run into with renting for time is the cost. Even if I am able to find a place who will rent me a twin to do cross countries in, the cost for the same number of hours is going to be somewhere between double and triple the cost of a FO program. The result will be a much longer period of time building than if I am able to find a job or do the FO program. Throwing away $25k might sound like a lot, but throwing away $60k for the same hours is just that much worse.
I should also point out that I'm only able to log about 10-15 hours a month through rental, and that's under perfect conditions with no scheduling conflicts, so renting to time build would take ages.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
You're 32! If you were 45, this may be a different discussion. You have lots and lots of time in front of you to fly 777s, if that's what you so desire. Like I said, flying a heavy jet is pretty boring. Lots of time on autopilot watching the miles tick down on the FMS. Talk on the radio sometimes, eat dinner, take a break. Land sometimes. Hell, I really love flying, but man, like MikeD said, the coolest thing I get to do is shoot an approach every once in a while. Maybe with a crosswind, if I'm lucky.
If you get there at 40, you'll have 25 years left of the above. Lots of time.