First officer training program?

[Autothrust Blue]

Glad we could be of service, Cap'n.

...now go out and buy that FO who you so brusquely shut down a beer.

 

[MikeD]

It's amazing how many pilots there are that have no life outside of aviation. I was flying with a guy I've never met before. Reaching cruise, he pulls out a stack of photos of his new Cessna. Unsolicited, he hands them to me. I feign interest in the first few photos and them hand the stack back to him, while I tell him "nice plane". He then asks what kind of plane I own. I reply that I don't own one. He looks surprised and asks why not. I told him that I have no use for my own airplane and that I don't like flying in GA airplanes anymore. The best part is that the said that he doesn't even use it for travel. He uses it to go fetch the proverbial $100 hamburger on nice days, even though it's got more crap in it and better equipped than the Airbus we were sitting in. When he asked me why I didn't like GA flying I told him that if I were a ditch digger, that on my time off I wouldn't go and dig up my yard just for fun. That to me, is what GA flying just "around the patch" is like. That pissed him off and he canned the little airplane talk the rest of the pairing.

The bolded part is certainly understandable, and I can relate to it. To me, occasional GA flying is ok, but I don't really go out of my way to do it. Besides being outrageously costly as compared to what you're getting with it (price of avgas, rent, ownership, etc), the general interest just isn't there for much of the same reason you mention. Flying really is just a job, when you're getting paid to do it. Even back when I flew military jets, there were many days where it was "gotta go fly today? That sucks!" simply due to the amount of work and hours that it took of planning/briefing/debriefing, just to go fly a 2.0 mission....it took all darn day nearly. And the flying itself was always work.....there were very few times I could just sit back in the cockpit and enjoy the flight. There was always something that needed to be done now, or thought ahead......if you're doing nothing, you're missing something. So even that became work and something sometimes not looked forward to......which non-military pilots can never understand and are often shocked to hear, but its true.

I see exactly where you're coming from. And I guess its part of any job, eventually.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

...now go out and buy that FO who you so brusquely shut down a beer.

I was the F/O. This guy seriously had no life outside of aviation. He was chomping at the bit to bid to the 747-400. When I asked why he wanted to do that when it would mean a crazy multi-leg commute to ANC and all for the same pay, as we are a single pay scale for equipment, he responded "It's a 747-400, the pinnacle of airline flying and every pilot should aspire to fly it". I just shook my head and said "Enjoy flying the 400, it sounds like it's right up your alley".

 

[DPApilot]

I was the F/O. This guy seriously had no life outside of aviation. He was chomping at the bit to bid to the 747-400. When I asked why he wanted to do that when it would mean a crazy multi-leg commute to ANC and all for the same pay, as we are a single pay scale for equipment, he responded "It's a 747-400, the pinnacle of airline flying and every pilot should aspire to fly it". I just shook my head and said "Enjoy flying the 400, it sounds like it's right up your alley".

Guy likes GA so he must be a tool!

 

[jafra98]

Aviation is a very closed circle, everyone knows someone somewhere. Don't burn out your bridges, you'll never know when you'll have to cross them.......................................

 

[Maurus]

When did this FO program thing turn into PFJ stuff? No job is taken if he does a program similar to what he mentioned in the OP. The are no FO jobs in single pilot cargo.

He is just paying for flight time. No different than renting a Seminole.

If he does one of those overseas things in a jet that someone told him to do then yes. PFJ is exactly what it would be.

That said, time building programs for a US citizen or someone able to work in the US is a foolish way to spend money as there are plenty of options for building time.

 

[EIR]

Where's the popcorn eating smily?

 

[FlyingScot]

I think you have been given some good advice on paying to be an FO. Dont do it. In the past 12 years of flying I have seen a major degrade in pay and QOL. One of the tools companies use is the PTF to keep wages down. Participating in one of these programs would hurt your resume. There is very little chance you are going to get hired to be in the right seat after attending a program like this. The 250 hours of Turbine won't mean much if you then have to CFI for two years after it to get your time up to make you hire-able.

One thing that won't look bad on your resume is a CFI rating. It could even be the reason you get hired later on down the road even if it is not to teach. The one thing you are absolutely qualified to do at 250 hours is flight instruct, it might be the only thing. A lot of the jumping or traffic watch jobs require 500 hours to start.

I know some here got where they are without a CFI but the industry has changed so many times in the past 12 years I have been flying, I would not base future expectations based on past performances. Here is a list of trends I have seen come and go in 12 years: major airlines being a well paid, stable and fast rise to good pay, fractionals, 250 hour regional hirees, corporate aviation paying for type ratings.

Might as well get your CFI and teach until you can find something better. If you can become a good CFI and as a mature gentleman you might find some opportunities through CFI-ing. The best pay and QOL I have had as a pilot was as a CFI. But once again don't base future expectations on past experiences in today's economy.

 

[SuperCubRick]

It's amazing how many pilots there are that have no life outside of aviation. I was flying with a guy I've never met before. Reaching cruise, he pulls out a stack of photos of his new Cessna. Unsolicited, he hands them to me. I feign interest in the first few photos and them hand the stack back to him, while I tell him "nice plane". He then asks what kind of plane I own. I reply that I don't own one. He looks surprised and asks why not. I told him that I have no use for my own airplane and that I don't like flying in GA airplanes anymore. The best part is that the said that he doesn't even use it for travel. He uses it to go fetch the proverbial $100 hamburger on nice days, even though it's got more crap in it and better equipped than the Airbus we were sitting in. When he asked me why I didn't like GA flying I told him that if I were a ditch digger, that on my time off I wouldn't go and dig up my yard just for fun. That to me, is what GA flying just "around the patch" is like. That pissed him off and he canned the little airplane talk the rest of the pairing.

That probably wasn't the best way for him to go about starting a conversation about GA flying.

For some people, including myself, it's a hobby outside of their profession. Some pilots don't seem to be interested in flying at all, professionally or as a hobby, but somehow decided to invest a lot of time, effort and money to make a career out of it - and I've always thought that type of pilot was a little odd. I enjoy GA, it's a fun hobby and has been a great way to spend time with dad.

The analogy of the ditch digger isn't very good because GA is so completely different than flying for an airline, it's hard to compare the two. It would be a good analogy if GA involved flying a pairing or two in an airliner on your days off.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

That probably wasn't the best way for him to go about starting a conversation about GA flying.

For some people, including myself, it's a hobby outside of their profession. Some pilots don't seem to be interested in flying at all, professionally or as a hobby, but somehow decided to invest a lot of time, effort and money to make a career out of it - and I've always thought that type of pilot was a little odd. I enjoy GA, it's a fun hobby and has been a great way to spend time with dad.

The analogy of the ditch digger isn't very good because GA is so completely different than flying for an airline, it's hard to compare the two. It would be a good analogy if GA involved flying a pairing or two in an airliner on your days off.

I'm glad you enjoy your GA flying. For me, I've have other interests for my time off.

 

[Maurus]

I'm glad you enjoy your GA flying. For me, I've have other interests for my time off.

Could be worse. You could find someone that enjoys flight sim and ends up flying the same plane around the world in the sim on his day off. They do exist.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Could be worse. You could find someone that enjoys flight sim and ends up flying the same plane around the world in the sim on his day off. They do exist.

Some people juggle geese, and it's inappropriate (and illegal, in the literal sense) to throw rocks at them.

 

[Treblesum81]

As I said in the post RIGHT BEFORE THIS ONE:

There are so many aerial survey/mapping companies out there right now where you can build 500-700 hours a year easy. That's how I got my first thousand hours and I never got my CFI ticket. Try that.

Your post went up while I was working on mine, so I never saw it until now. With that out of the way, how do you respond to the assertions that others are making all over this thread that none of those jobs are going to hire me without at least 500-700 hours?

And heck, if you want to fly a 777, that's not hard. I'm 29, and I'm a decently senior F/O on a 767. Even had an opportunity to move over to the 777 last year, but decided to stay put because of relative seniority. I don't fly for a mainline carrier, but if your goal is to be a 777 pilot, you could reasonably do it before you're 40.

How old were you when you started?

But, based on you emphasis that you'd be a bad instructor, let me tell you right now that you'd be a terrible airline pilot. Any respectable airline wants pilots who want to be captains. Any respectable airline captain has to be a mentor to all of his FOs.

You don't have to be an instructor now, but you will someday if you ever hope to be an airline captain. And if you don't want to be a captain, then you'll probably fail in the airline world.

Just my opinion, of course.

Not teaching "basic instruction" to a major/legacy newhire, by any means, but tricks and tips for the airplane that aren't taught in the schoolhouse. There's a LOT that can be learned from a guy who has spent 10 years on one airframe.

I'm not trying to argue with you because I'm not at a major, but I have to believe that the guy with more experience in the left seat is mentoring at some level, whether he acknowledges it or not. It's usually not even flying the airplane, it could easily be something as simple as attitude and tone. If the captain has ultimate responsibility for all aspects of the flight, then an FO has to look to his actions as an example of what to do (or not to do) whenever he upgrades.

First of all, I am considering getting my CFI, but I'm still not interested in using it. Contrary to what many seem to be implying, I can see the value in acquiring one or more instructor ratings. That being said, I would say that mentoring your lower time / less experienced, yet properly trained and qualified peers and offering up tips and tricks is a whole different animal than trying to teach basic flying skills.

For the OP.... What's your big hard on for the 777? I fly for one of the few majors in the US that still flies the 747-400 and I could be in the single digits bidding right seat in it, if I wanted. I have NO desire whatsoever to fly that thing. It goes too far, for too long and is away from home longer than I want to be gone for. At my airline, we have a single payscale and the 747 is domiciled in Alaska, yet we still have lots of egomaniacs who just have to fly that thing, who deal with an arduous commute to work just so they can tell their buddies who fly "lesser" aircraft, that they fly the 747-400.

Besides, by the time you get to somewhere that has a 777, it will be an outdated POS. What new a/c will you have a hard on for then?

P.S. I never was a CFI, so you don't need a CFI to fly the "heavies".

For your first question, I love the 777, its just my dream plane. I think everyone has, or has had at least one over the years. Sure there may be other options out there, but its still my goal... On another note, I'm curious how you bridged the gap I'm facing between finishing your ratings and getting that first job?

Third option...

Try Susiair in Indonesia. They hire foreign pilots to fly in the bush, starting out on the right seat in the Caravan until you get enough experience to be trusted to fly in the left seat. Fly there for awhile until you can move up to the Porter. I have a friend who got an interview there with only 200 hours total time.

You could take a look at bush flying in Africa although I'm not well versed on the process, but my understanding is that you won't get a chance unless you fly down there in person. Check out Botswana/Maun.

I appreciate the input and I'll have a look at it. I've heard rumors that some of those foreign carriers have headhunter agents in the states that can facilitate the application process without having to fly off to Africa or Indonesia to apply in person, have you or anyone else heard of these or know how to find them?

Treblesum
Get a Cfi job....

...

Greg,
I keep getting sucked back into this discussion even though it drives me nuts. It's like a train wreck that I can't stop looking at.
Let me break this down for you because I don't think you're really listening to what people are trying to tell you.
No one is trying to tear you down personally. No one is judging you for not wanting to instruct. We are just trying to make to aware your options of which the are many. You already know that you are limiting your options by avoiding instruction, so let's not dwell on that anymore. You mentioned though in a previous post that your goal is to captain a 777. How exactly do you plan on attaining such a position without being an instructor? I don't mean being a CFI, but being able to teach, mentor and be patient with yor FOs. As a captain that is what you will do. You will be responsible for teaching and mentoring those coming up through the ranks, so you're going to have to develop these skills along the way. That's just food for thought. You don't need to be a CFI now, but teaching skills are part of this job.
Next, there have been plenty of suggestions for low time jobs. Dropping sky divers, banner towing, survey, pipeline patrol and some VFR 135 jobs can be great ways to build good time and get paid to do it. Unfortunately most of these jobs require at least 500 hours to get into. The delemma that everyone here has faced is how to bridge the gap between fesh commercial and 500 hrs. As is appearance in here many people choose to get hat additional time by instructing. Your suggestion was to get that time through an FOTP. There has already been the suggestion to buy a cheap twin and fly it on your own, but hat may not be feasible. So maybe just rent a plane after work and build up a few more hours. The time immediately following getting your commercial is the hardest part because you are now qualified to get paid to fly but no ne will pay you to fly.
The only thing you're getting beat up on is the pay for training. Is there anything wrong with sitting in the right seat of a turboprop? No. It can be a great learning experience. There is something wrong with offering to pay for something that you should be getting paid to do. I sat in the right seat of a metro for a while and I made crap! I got paid $80/ day, but I didn't pay a dime for the time. I was an employee and was treated as such. They also wouldn't hire me until I had 800 hrs because they didn't want to hire someone who wasn't upgradeable to the left seat in a reasonably short amount of time.
So here's the short of it. No one wants to see you reach your goals more than the group of us here. That's what we're here for. We are providing you with information based on our experience in the industry and it's up to you what you do with that info.
PM me. I'd be happy to talk with you over the phone about options. Sometimes the info you read on here just doesn't come across as it was meant to be.

I'm probably going to take you up on this offer. I understand where a lot of people are coming from here, but it would be nice to pick some brains to see if something just isn't getting said that an obvious alternative.

Personally I don't think the OP Treblesum81 is willing to listen to the options besides CFI that have been proposed - survey aircraft, bush flying jobs, banner towing or whatnot. All of these jobs (skydiving pilot) should supply at a minimum 500 to 1000 hours per year increasing total time.
But all the OP wants to learn is how to make those numbers increase instantly. So here's your solution:
Since you don't want to listen to all the experience here, just pencil whip your logbook total time.
I think you're going to have a long tough career no matter what you do.
At your age, while you might be excited about this career, I think you have a lot of maturing to do first - notably listening to others, learning to work with others, patience, communication and other important characteristics any successful person needs.
Good luck to ya.

But what he isn't getting is that even these jobs which were once considered "wet commercial" jobs no longer even look at guys with less than 500TT. Usually 700TT to 1,000TT is the norm for aerial survey, diver-driving, banner-towing, etc. Believe me, I called and emailed literally a couple hundred commercial ops when I first finished up my commercial rating and that afforded me 1 interview. Just 1. And that was a job that was whittled down from 300 applicants, to 50 phone interviews, and finally to about 20 in-person interviews. Pretty slim pickins. But guess what? Some of these jobs do have reduced minimums if you have a CFI. Usually 350 to 500TT. We aren't telling you to not buy 250 Turbine hours for our health. Bottom line. It is generally frowned upon and won't really do you any service in interviews and it still won't really get you the total time you need to be a competitive candidate for low-time commercial jobs that are available. But hey, the dozen or so of us that have been telling you that you should get your CFI obviously don't know what we're talking about. It didn't used to be the only way to build time. But take it from me, a "wet commercial" guy himself... It is pretty much the only real way to build time these days. All the other jobs are taken by guys with 1,000TT or more or guys who don't want anything to do with regional airlines with a lot of TT. And I live in a "target rich environment". Florida is full of aviation opportunities. Just not if you don't have a CFI or minimum 1,000TT.

When did this FO program thing turn into PFJ stuff? No job is taken if he does a program similar to what he mentioned in the OP. The are no FO jobs in single pilot cargo.
He is just paying for flight time. No different than renting a Seminole.
If he does one of those overseas things in a jet that someone told him to do then yes. PFJ is exactly what it would be.
That said, time building programs for a US citizen or someone able to work in the US is a foolish way to spend money as there are plenty of options for building time.

I am and have been considering everything everyone here has being saying. Those jobs sound great, though some seem like better options than others in order to work me towards my end goals. Unfortunately, as chrisreedrules and several others have brought up, those jobs are all going to require around 300-700 more hours than I've got which are going to have to come from somewhere. I don't expect them to come instantly, I just want to accumulate them in 1-2 years rather than 4-5... even if I did go for one of these FO programs, the information I've been getting says they take at least a year anyway. The issue is that, so far, this is the only way I know of that's not instructing, which has offered me any sort of guaranteed way to increase my hours. That being said, I am looking to try an find information about some of these other options as this discussion continues, but I'm starting to get the impression that unless I've got my multi in hand (still a few weeks out) and am ready to go apply, I'm going to be hard pressed to get real answers from anyone responsible for hiring.

 

[Maurus]

Some people juggle geese, and it's inappropriate (and illegal, in the literal sense) to throw rocks at them.

Ya know. I think I messed that sentence up haha.

 

[Maurus]

I am and have been considering everything everyone here has being saying. Those jobs sound great, though some seem like better options than others in order to work me towards my end goals. Unfortunately, as chrisreedrules and several others have brought up, those jobs are all going to require around 300-700 more hours than I've got which are going to have to come from somewhere. I don't expect them to come instantly, I just want to accumulate them in 1-2 years rather than 4-5... even if I did go for one of these FO programs, the information I've been getting says they take at least a year anyway. The issue is that, so far, this is the only way I know of that's not instructing, which has offered me any sort of guaranteed way to increase my hours. That being said, I am looking to try an find information about some of these other options as this discussion continues, but I'm starting to get the impression that unless I've got my multi in hand (still a few weeks out) and am ready to go apply, I'm going to be hard pressed to get real answers from anyone responsible for hiring.

If you are willing to drop a ton of money to build time then find a school with a time building program in a multi. Flying a Seminole around the US and going where you want to when you want to can be extremely fun. You will likely have your 500TT for non-CFI jobs and the multi time you will need for the airlines when you hit 1500TT. It would be a much better experience overall than going the FO route.

Get some long X-countires in and some photography companies may love to have you at 500TT.

 

[WacoFan]

I've never gotten a clear answer to a question I posed a long time ago.

Central Air Southwest has some kind of FO program on their Commanders. Now...although it is NOT a real airplane...I've always thought Commanders were kind of cool and wouldn't mind picking one up to run between KC and Dallas. My thought was, at some point, do the CASW FO program - just to get time in a Commander with a person that flies one for a living, experience all kinds of weather, etc - I always thought it would be really great training in different "real world" environments prior to packing my wife and kid into one and flying them around. I would be doing it to:

a) Build time for insurance purposes in a Commander.
b) Get better experience than buzzing around by myself or getting hamburgers and such.

Now, I don't feel I would be "lowering the bar" in any way, and I think it would be great experience. What are your thoughts? Give me your worst!

 

[Maurus]

I've never gotten a clear answer to a question I posed a long time ago.

Central Air Southwest has some kind of FO program on their Commanders. Now...although it is NOT a real airplane...I've always thought Commanders were kind of cool and wouldn't mind picking one up to run between KC and Dallas. My thought was, at some point, do the CASW FO program - just to get time in a Commander with a person that flies one for a living, experience all kinds of weather, etc - I always thought it would be really great training in different "real world" environments prior to packing my wife and kid into one and flying them around. I would be doing it to:

a) Build time for insurance purposes in a Commander.
b) Get better experience than buzzing around by myself or getting hamburgers and such.

Now, I don't feel I would be "lowering the bar" in any way, and I think it would be great experience. What are your thoughts? Give me your worst!

I have always believed these programs are not a bad idea for such a person. If you are building the time in type for insurance on your own personal aircraft then go for it. Then again you likely could just get a MEI with experience in the plane to satisfy any insurance complaints for a cheaper cost. Just have them go with you on trips till insurance says you are good to go.

 

[WacoFan]

I have always believed these programs are not a bad idea for such a person. If you are building the time in type for insurance on your own personal aircraft then go for it. Then again you likely could just get a MEI with experience in the plane to satisfy any insurance complaints for a cheaper cost. Just have them go with you on trips till insurance says you are good to go.

Yeah - but that is different than a 135 environment, challenging weather, etc - that's why I always thought it'd be superior to the instructor path.

 

[dasleben]

How old were you when you started?

I got my CFI at 20, and hired into my current position at 26. Good timing, but also good networking. What got me the recommendation was that the person writing it respected me. Trust me, you'll lose a lot of respect by going the PFT route.

 

[WacoFan]

I will add one thing though: If you are going to do PFT or PFJ...but it is in a cool airplane - then you're good. Seriously - if there were a Lodestar or DC-3 or similar type of equipment that I could do PFT/PFJ for I would be all over it. And I would be laughing at everyone here. That's just how I roll.