First officer training program?

Treblesum81 said:
It's been said at least a couple of times before this as well. Basically, I get the impression that there are people who think anyone who isn't a CFI shouldn't bother working as a pilot because they aren't going to be good at their job. Maybe that's just my interpretation of the statements, but, with so many people here saying I almost HAVE to go the instruction route, I don't think it's an unfair assessment, at least of some people's attitudes.
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Naw dawg. You're not listening to what I'm saying. You'll be a just fine pilot without ever CFIing, and seeing as that is your number one goal right now (beyond getting to the grail that you seem to think the 777 is), that's probably what you should do. My point is that when you get your first command where it isn't just you being PIC of the airframe but rather you being PIC of a crew AND the airframe, whether it is an RJ or a Jball (does anybody even fly them anymore Tram) or whatever, you are going to have next to no idea about how to run a cockpit. You may get lucky and be naturally good at it, but if you aren't, it is going to be very difficult for a while and your crew will suffer.
 
BobDDuck said:
Naw dawg. You're not listening to what I'm saying. You'll be a just fine pilot without ever CFIing, and seeing as that is your number one goal right now (beyond getting to the grail that you seem to think the 777 is), that's probably what you should do. My point is that when you get your first command where it isn't just you being PIC of the airframe but rather you being PIC of a crew AND the airframe, whether it is an RJ or a Jball (does anybody even fly them anymore Tram) or whatever, you are going to have next to no idea about how to run a cockpit. You may get lucky and be naturally good at it, but if you aren't, it is going to be very difficult for a while and your crew will suffer.
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No doubt. When a captain fresh off upgrade says something like, "Yeah, I was lucky enough to skip instructing," I usually brace for a 4 day circus.
 
I was so glad I had the experience of being a flight instructor once I upgraded...you'd be surprised how much you use those skills. You need to have an understanding of patience, and let things develop a bit so the FO (a crew member you are mentoring) can see the results of his/her actions (when not critical to safety or a potential violation). This is something you learn as a flight instructor. Everyone has their own path....
 
BobDDuck said:
Because if you are going to be a crappy CFI, chances are you are going to be a crappy captain. Yes, there are plenty of people that have upgraded without ever CFIing and do just fine, but ask ANY FO and they will tell you that they can figure out in the first 10 minutes flying with a CA whether the guy ever instructed or not.

Being a captain (especially at a regional and even more especially when a lot of hiring is going on) is EXACTLY like being a CFI. You just don't have to sign any logbooks.
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On the flip side, the worst captain I've flown with was a 5,000 hour CFI. Did nothing but instruct at Embry Riddle. He was a DEC and treated every lesson like I was a student. It didn't help that there was a culture barrier between he and I and the fact that I had 5 time the time in type. I do not like being questioned on every action that I do, and having to pull the book out in flight to show him that what I'm doing is correct is neither the time, nor place.


Some of the guys who were hired as 250 hour Fos were some of the best captains, and also some of the worst. Likewise, some of the ex CFI's and the likes were some of the best too. It depends on the person and quality of time they have. Not the quantity or how they got it...
 
BobDDuck said:
Because if you are going to be a crappy CFI, chances are you are going to be a crappy captain. Yes, there are plenty of people that have upgraded without ever CFIing and do just fine, but ask ANY FO and they will tell you that they can figure out in the first 10 minutes flying with a CA whether the guy ever instructed or not.

Being a captain (especially at a regional and even more especially when a lot of hiring is going on) is EXACTLY like being a CFI. You just don't have to sign any logbooks.
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Pretty telling of the "quality" of regional F/Os when you have to give them basic flying instruction when they are at the controls of an "airliner".
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Pretty telling of the "quality" of regional F/Os when you have to give them basic flying instruction when they are at the controls of an "airliner".
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Seriously, as a former freight dawg, and a current corporate pilot, stop trolling. What is your point? Okay, the quality of experience went down in the last few years. What are you getting at? Are you saying you are better than most pilots out there because the most junior guys don't have the experience you do?

I've argued the merits of being a freight dawg in the past. It means nothing now. Guess what, you are the exception nowadays, if you are truly at UPS/FedEx. It doesn't happen the way it did for you, and most of us are okay with it. Move on, as we have. I'll gladly work overseas because 121 freight companies are not knocking on my door, and I don't want the miserable life I see in the airlines. Be happy where you are, but encourage the up and comers.

If you are so happy with your life, stop trolling. If you are miserable, keep doing what you are doing. Just my opinion as a "newer" guy to this industry.
 
Stone Cold said:
Seriously, as a former freight dawg, and a current corporate pilot, stop trolling.
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Not trolling. When a current regional pilot says that regional Captains need to CFI regional F/Os, that's telling as to the quality, or lack thereof, of regional F/Os. I think many regional pilots are lacking in basic piloting and command decision making skills in their rush to get a seat on the nearest RJ, bypassing the traditional and proven methods of seasoning and experience building.
 
I don't think that's exactly what they are saying. I, as a new regional FO needed mentoring and learned new concepts in decision making and safety/operational balance. Any regional captain can expect to do the same, as I did when I upgraded. I would find that sometimes the FO would just get behind not only the plane, but the whole day and I would need to stick with him and instruct oversee and mentor (my job as a captain) other times I have FO's get in there whose stated purpose was to make my job easy (dang near obsolete) and did it! CFI skills were invaluable in how to properly pass that information and mentoring along while flying and during all phases of the operation and I was glad I had them.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Not trolling. When a current regional pilot says that regional Captains need to CFI regional F/Os, that's telling as to the quality, or lack thereof, of regional F/Os. I think many regional pilots are lacking in basic piloting and command decision making skills in their rush to get a seat on the nearest RJ, bypassing the traditional and proven methods of seasoning and experience building.
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I agree, but what is chastising them going to accomplish? Guess what, the freight experience you and I had, doesn't exist any more. Check 21 eliminated quite a few jobs. There is no place for the up and comers to go other than the airlines, unless they want to hold out to try to fly a clapped out freighter. The numbers aren't where they used to be. So, now you have a handful of people able to do what we did. Are the rest just supposed to stop flying?

Chastising and tormenting does not win friends. Tell them of your experiences and have them want to be a better pilot. Pissing people off does nothing for anybody.

Best of luck and Purple/Brown (I think you are supposedly at Brown).
 
DPApilot said:
On the flip side, the worst captain I've flown with was a 5,000 hour CFI. Did nothing but instruct at Embry Riddle. He was a DEC and treated every lesson like I was a student. It didn't help that there was a culture barrier between he and I and the fact that I had 5 time the time in type. I do not like being questioned on every action that I do, and having to pull the book out in flight to show him that what I'm doing is correct is neither the time, nor place.


Some of the guys who were hired as 250 hour Fos were some of the best captains, and also some of the worst. Likewise, some of the ex CFI's and the likes were some of the best too. It depends on the person and quality of time they have. Not the quantity or how they got it...
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Ohhhh Capppptaaaaain, it's a great day to fly. ;-)
 
I brace every day for my landings...All joking a side, as a Capt I sometimes feel like I am a full time CFI, then I wonder why im not making instructor pay at the airline. Might wanna get on that
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Pretty telling of the "quality" of regional F/Os when you have to give them basic flying instruction when they are at the controls of an "airliner".
Click to expand...

Now that we crept on to this. The fast majority of Captains I flew had their CFI or instructed in other capacities earlier in their career. They were by some of the most helpful Captains that I had. Yes, there are exceptions but instructing does help.. Some of the Captains that I had that weren't instructors were some of the most over bearing, and micromanaging people I have ever flown with.


The RJ IMO has made it far too easy to put sub par low time pilots in the right seat. The automation is being used as a crutch to get them in the seat. Turn in all off and watch the fun.

No matter how hard anyone tries you just can't replace good ole fashioned experience with SIMs and classes. Good Decision Making comes from living through less desirable decisions that usually take place very early in a career (freight, traffic watch, banner towing, etc).
 
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