FAA passes another records act

[flyingbum]

Oh? And what exactly did you do? Straight to a major? Never flew crappy regional/freight/135?

I spent too many years messing about with 135, thinking regional flying was the worst. All it did was set my career back. Going to a regional was by far the best thing I did for my career, and most regionals pay quite well now.

Yeah man, Freight and 135.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Yeah man, Freight and 135.

Haven’t done freight, but have done 135. Both piston and turbine. That industry has plenty of its own problems. I’m glad I left it ASAP for the regionals to be honest.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Haven’t done freight, but have done 135. Both piston and turbine. That industry has plenty of its own problems. I’m glad I left it ASAP for the regionals to be honest.

You’re officially smarter than I am


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[TUCKnTRUCK]

I’m not trashing the union. They have a job that requires DFR for their members. I just think when it comes to training and failure issues, there ought to be a more harsh process than what we have now. That would be one good way to prevent the next Colgan/Atlas type accident.

Are you sure? Because as a sim TCE/check airman/sme etc who gave lots of rides, I 100% guarantee that I could legitimately bust you on a check ride if I wanted to… or just didn’t like you, any time I wanted.

I mean, I really wanted to be a Dick, I’d just stick my head up in the middle of the “circle” and say “where’s the airport, can you see it?” If I wanted to be extra Dick-y about it I’d turn off the lights, so when they try to correct, it’s still gone. We all had gatcha’s that we used as teachable moments. We learned pretty quickly what people miss. Sure would suck to catch a check airman that wanted you gone. I’m serious though.
just for fun, I’d bet I could get you on a task before even getting to the air work on a type.

 

[GypsyPilot]

You’re officially smarter than I am


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I’m really not.

I spent several years in 135 and 91 “avoiding” the airlines because I thought I was so smart. In hindsight, it was a major blunder in my career.

Fortunately I did eventually decide I didn’t want to spend the rest of my career doing that stuff and thank goodness I moved on. But the kool-aid is pretty strong with some of those guys. It’s just funny watching people say the same stupid crap I used to 10+ years ago.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Are you sure? Because as a sim TCE/check airman/sme etc who gave lots of rides, I 100% guarantee that I could legitimately bust you on a check ride if I wanted to… or just didn’t like you, any time I wanted.

I mean, I really wanted to be a Dick, I’d just stick my head up in the middle of the “circle” and say “where’s the airport, can you see it?” If I wanted to be extra Dick-y about it I’d turn off the lights, so when they try to correct, it’s still gone. We all had gatcha’s that we used as teachable moments. We learned pretty quickly what people miss. Sure would suck to catch a check airman that wanted you gone. I’m serious though.
just for fun, I’d bet I could get you on a task before even getting to the air work on a type.

With your experience, I’m pretty sure you could tell who the Marvin and Conrads are. Instead of playing dick checkairman, I’d prefer a checkairman who can spot a legit weak pilot (and not one who couldn’t find an airport because you turned the lights off).

Flew a PC with G Peoples, nicknamed pink slip Peoples. Horror stories abound, many failures left and right, a nightmare guy I was told. Turned Out to be one of the fairest PCs I had. Thorough, but fair. I haven’t done your gig, but I’d venturing a guess you can tell in the first five minutes how a guy is gonna fare that day.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

With your experience, I’m pretty sure you could tell who the Marvin and Conrads are. Instead of playing dick checkairman, I’d prefer a checkairman who can spot a legit weak pilot (and not one who couldn’t find an airport because you turned the lights off).

Flew a PC with G Peoples, nicknamed pink slip Peoples. Horror stories abound, many failures left and right, a nightmare guy I was told. Turned Out to be one of the fairest PCs I had. Thorough, but fair. I haven’t done your gig, but I’d venturing a guess you can tell in the first five minutes how a guy is gonna fare that day.

The point being, if a check airman has it out for you- say because of something you posted here, it’s not going to matter how your ride with “pink slip” went. Are you sure you want that check airman’s distaste for you to end your career? Because if you think that doesn’t exist, or that people won’t always be petty, I’ve seen it.

I’ve TP’d people, and failed people. I’ve had days where we didn’t even make it to the sim, and days we didn’t even make it to the oral. Doesn’t mean that they should forever be branded a washout. Most people that fail a ride go on to have long safe and successful careers.


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[mwflyer]

With your experience, I’m pretty sure you could tell who the Marvin and Conrads are. Instead of playing dick checkairman, I’d prefer a checkairman who can spot a legit weak pilot (and not one who couldn’t find an airport because you turned the lights off).

Flew a PC with G Peoples, nicknamed pink slip Peoples. Horror stories abound, many failures left and right, a nightmare guy I was told. Turned Out to be one of the fairest PCs I had. Thorough, but fair. I haven’t done your gig, but I’d venturing a guess you can tell in the first five minutes how a guy is gonna fare that day.

You love to bash Conrad, but unless I’m mistaking, he didnt have any primary checkride failures. Now all of a sudden, he gets to the regionals and can’t fly? It’s not hard to understand how he thought it was all unjust, and not his skill set, when up to that point, he’d been validated at every checkpoint.

not saying his attitude was the correct way to handle it, but I can’t think of many guys with zero busts, that would all of a sudden believe they can’t fly because they struggled in initial at the regionals. No matter how many times.

 

[GypsyPilot]

You love to bash Conrad, but unless I’m mistaking, he didnt have any primary checkride failures. Now all of a sudden, he gets to the regionals and can’t fly? It’s not hard to understand how he thought it was all unjust, and not his skill set, when up to that point, he’d been validated at every checkpoint.

not saying his attitude was the correct way to handle it, but I can’t think of many guys with zero busts, that would all of a sudden believe they can’t fly because they struggled in initial at the regionals. No matter how many times.

The regional and major airline checkrides that I’ve had over the past decade have without question been the most impartial and fair checkrides in my career.

You are given all of the tools to succeed at this level. If you fail on multiple occasions, there is a very serious problem with the applicant.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You love to bash Conrad, but unless I’m mistaking, he didnt have any primary checkride failures. Now all of a sudden, he gets to the regionals and can’t fly? It’s not hard to understand how he thought it was all unjust, and not his skill set, when up to that point, he’d been validated at every checkpoint.

not saying his attitude was the correct way to handle it, but I can’t think of many guys with zero busts, that would all of a sudden believe they can’t fly because they struggled in initial at the regionals. No matter how many times.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The point being, if a check airman has it out for you- say because of something you posted here, it’s not going to matter how your ride with “pink slip” went. Are you sure you want that check airman’s distaste for you to end your career? Because if you think that doesn’t exist, or that people won’t always be petty, I’ve seen it.

I’ve TP’d people, and failed people. I’ve had days where we didn’t even make it to the sim, and days we didn’t even make it to the oral. Doesn’t mean that they should forever be branded a washout. Most people that fail a ride go on to have long safe and successful careers.


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If they’re out to fail simply to fail someone to stroke an ego, or be petty because their feelings got hurt on an online forum, then those checkairman shouldn’t be checkairman. Thankfully at our shop, it isn’t like the regional shenanigans you describe.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

If they’re out to fail simply to fail someone to stroke an ego, or be petty because their feelings got hurt on an online forum, then those checkairman shouldn’t be checkairman. Thankfully at our shop, it isn’t like the regional shenanigans you describe.

I see that you’re still not getting it- and if you think your shop has a magic filter which has removed all interpersonal issues from your check airman - I’ve got a bridge in NY for sale that would be a prime investment opportunity.

The vast majority of people who have busted a check-ride grow from the experience and become better pilots. There are always a few people who won’t learn, and use whatever perceived injustice to explain away a failure, however, simply making check-ride busts have harsher consequences won’t actually make flying safer.

In the 90’s/2000’s the CFI ride was almost a normal bust. It was almost like he FAA was using it as a chance to show candidates that they themselves weren’t perfect and we’re still learning. Lots of very competent pilots failed for stuff that wasn’t even always related to their flying skills. Do you think blackballing those folks from continued career progression would make airlines safer?


Anyways, I’m not super happy about the extra reporting stuff because it’s more work for me. I mean, I’m probably not going to bother reporting if I had to discipline one of my pilots because he slept through his alarm and missed a show time or something.


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[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I get what you're saying. Surely we can all agree that there is a difference between a guy who busted a CFI checkride in the 90s and then failed one PC at an airline, versus:

Literally failing. every. single. checkride. that. ever. came. his. way (Colgan CA). Pvt, Inst, Comm, initial Saab, recurrent Saab, then recurrent Saab again.

or

Going to several regionals, Air Wis, Trans States, Mesa, (and some I'm forgetting I'm sure) and then again failing pretty much at every step of the way. Withdrew from Air Wis. Mesa, got on as FO, failed the upgrade process. Not once, but twice! Then went to Atlas. Failed the 76 type the first time, given another chance and got online.


Both these individuals had enough red flags throughout their histories. This wouldn't be just a case of a rogue checkairman out to make you have a bad day. Obviously, the hiring boards consider (or should consider) that possibility. But these two pilots? They knew about their past records and that's why they lied about it - they knew it would be the only way to get hired.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I get what you're saying. Surely we can all agree that there is a difference between a guy who busted a CFI checkride in the 90s and then failed one PC at an airline, versus:

Literally failing. every. single. checkride. that. ever. came. his. way (Colgan CA). Pvt, Inst, Comm, initial Saab, recurrent Saab, then recurrent Saab again.

or

Going to several regionals, Air Wis, Trans States, Mesa, (and some I'm forgetting I'm sure) and then again failing pretty much at every step of the way. Withdrew from Air Wis. Mesa, got on as FO, failed the upgrade process. Not once, but twice! Then went to Atlas. Failed the 76 type the first time, given another chance and got online.


Both these individuals had enough red flags throughout their histories. This wouldn't be just a case of a rogue checkairman out to make you have a bad day. Obviously, the hiring boards consider (or should consider) that possibility. But these two pilots? They knew about their past records and that's why they lied about it - they knew it would be the only way to get hired.

Maybe, but what you said was “ when it comes to training and failure issues there should be a more harsh process”.

Transparently accessible records is not a “more harsh” process. More harsh is “one and done”. Penalizing the checkride more so than it already is won’t change much of anything, because nobody has a perfect ride already. Making it a career ending event won’t change that. It doesn’t even need to be a rogue check airman. You might one day just hit the thing that a particular CKA or department has decided is an ongoing training issue or standardization issue - and boom. Back to the school house for retraining. Maybe you’re perfect for the day, and your FO loads something wrong, or Incorrectly sets an altimeter and you miss it busting mins.


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[GypsyPilot]

Maybe, but what you said was “ when it comes to training and failure issues there should be a more harsh process”.

Transparently accessible records is not a “more harsh” process. More harsh is “one and done”. Penalizing the checkride more so than it already is won’t change much of anything, because nobody has a perfect ride already. Making it a career ending event won’t change that. It doesn’t even need to be a rogue check airman. You might one day just hit the thing that a particular CKA or department has decided is an ongoing training issue or standardization issue - and boom. Back to the school house for retraining. Maybe you’re perfect for the day, and your FO loads something wrong, or Incorrectly sets an altimeter and you miss it busting mins.


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Can you please explain, succinctly, what exactly you think needs to change or is unfair about the proposed change?

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Can you please explain, succinctly, what exactly you think needs to change or is unfair about the proposed change?

Nothing. Im against the notion that CC put forth in that a checkride failure needs to have harsher consequences.


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[mwflyer]

The regional and major airline checkrides that I’ve had over the past decade have without question been the most impartial and fair checkrides in my career.

You are given all of the tools to succeed at this level. If you fail on multiple occasions, there is a very serious problem with the applicant.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying?

Yeah. Probably didn’t articulate that well. I’m not saying he was treated unfairly. What I’m saying is, even if you are a • pilot, if you pass all your checkrides, you’re going to have a hard time believing all of a sudden you don’t have the skills to be a pilot.

take cc for example. He’s quick to remind us of his perfect record and how he’s excelled at every endeavor he’s undertaken in his life. If he were to bust his next two recurrent’s and be shown the door, do you think he’s going to say to himself “well, I guess I don’t have what it takes. Time to find a new career.” Or is he going to pursue flying again at another airline?

 

[GypsyPilot]

Yeah. Probably didn’t articulate that well. I’m not saying he was treated unfairly. What I’m saying is, even if you are a • pilot, if you pass all your checkrides, you’re going to have a hard time believing all of a sudden you don’t have the skills to be a pilot.

take cc for example. He’s quick to remind us of his perfect record and how he’s excelled at every endeavor he’s undertaken in his life. If he were to bust his next two recurrent’s and be shown the door, do you think he’s going to say to himself “well, I guess I don’t have what it takes. Time to find a new career.” Or is he going to pursue flying again at another airline?

If CC were to suddenly fail his next two AQPs/checkrides considering his past record of success, I would be very confident in saying there’s a major problem occurring in his life.

Honestly, it wouldn’t be bad a bad idea at all for at least Pro Standards to reach out and see if there’s a problem. Someone suddenly having multiple failures like that is very bizarre and unusual in the 121 world.

If he was new to 121, it may also be indicative of someone that just isn’t cut out for airline flying. I’ve come across a few pilots like that, and it really is better for them to be cut loose and stay away from the general public.

They (the Marvin’s and Conrad’s of the aviation world) should not under any circumstances be pushed through training.

 

[Richman]

If CC were to suddenly fail his next two AQPs/checkrides considering his past record of success, I would be very confident in saying there’s a major problem occurring in his life.

Honestly, it wouldn’t be bad a bad idea at all for at least Pro Standards to reach out and see if there’s a problem. Someone suddenly having multiple failures like that is very bizarre and unusual in the 121 world.

If he was new to 121, it may also be indicative of someone that just isn’t cut out for airline flying. I’ve come across a few pilots like that, and it really is better for them to be cut loose and stay away from the general public.

They (the Marvin’s and Conrad’s of the aviation world) should not under any circumstances be pushed through training.

In my experience, people with good records at a quality outfits don't go from spotless training histories to trainwrecks without some kind of external factor.

 

[mshunter]

If they’re out to fail simply to fail someone to stroke an ego, or be petty because their feelings got hurt on an online forum, then those checkairman shouldn’t be checkairman. Thankfully at our shop, it isn’t like the regional shenanigans you describe.

But they are, and it happens. Just because you haven't run across those guys at your shop doesn't mean they aren't there, or won't be at some point.