FAA passes another records act

mshunter said:
It was a different time in the industry. I'm don't hold grudges for someone trying to help.
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Well, I still don't feel good about it. But, again, if I can do anything... my shop is probably going to open up their widow again soon. There are a ton of us JC'ers here.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
ATP requirement - “Of good moral character”


Call me crazy, but I think if you screw up on an overnight the airline should know. You’re on rest but you’re still only there because of work. Personal experience from what I’ve seen, EVERY single shenanigan/horror story involving an overnight, it was the usual suspects. Where you went “well no surprise there.”
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You miss the point. I had one of my FA's and FO attacked for her pizza and him for being gay by a homeless guy in Madison walking back to the hotel after getting dinner. The only reason I wasn't arrested and subsequently fired was because the whole area is under video surveillance, and after detaining me, they looked at the video, and released me. I was lucky they had the video. Now tell me what part of that makes me of bad "moral character".

Again, the FAA needs to stay in it's lane.

But let's bring it back one step. What part of quitting for not being paid, and having an employer falsify records (134.5 operators do that with rest records all the time, it's known and nothing is done about it) makes me of bad "moral character"? Check ride failures have a distinct and definitive paper trail. You can't just make that s*** up. Give a shady boss a reason, and they will.
 
mshunter said:
You miss the point. I had one of my FA's and FO attacked for her pizza and him for being gay by a homeless guy in Madison walking back to the hotel after getting dinner. The only reason I wasn't arrested and subsequently fired was because the whole area is under video surveillance, and after detaining me, they looked at the video, and released me. I was lucky they had the video. Now tell me what part of that makes me of bad "moral character".
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I mean to be fair, an arrest is the kind of thing a company is likely going to find out about with a background check anyway.
 
Here is another theoretical question. Say pilot leaves employer X on bad terms and employer decides to falsify records to ruin said pilot's career, as is being suggested here. Now say the pilot pursues the employer in court and is successful. How long does it take the FAA bureaucracy to adjust the records accordingly? If it were mil records, there would still be some locatable trace of the erroneous original document in some far flung place when the next ice age arrives. I wonder if the FAA is any more diligent?
 
A company I used to work for had a "decent" reputation, and a decent operation that began to deteriorate. As it began to fall apart, the company started scheduling pilots for illegal flying (in the lower 48) non-stop. Eventually, when they accepted the trip, and the company "audited" the hours, they would come to the pilot and say that they were putting a PRIA-reportable letter in their file... but if they agreed to stay (6-12) more months, they'd remove the letter.

I believe there were people on here who are familiar with that/have had that happen to them.

That company is now out of business, but rumor has it that the former CP was well enough known to airline hiring departments for the nastygrams he put in pilot's PRIA records that he was universally turned down by all the airlines he applied to.

The company is out of business now, and as far as I know, their PRIA process is history. But if that info went straight into a database, they could basically retain pilots forever. And I can think of quite a few regionals and cargo operators that, from what I've heard, would happily follow suit to retain pilots. (read: keep pilot pay low)

I dunno.
 
JordanD said:
I mean to be fair, an arrest is the kind of thing a company is likely going to find out about with a background check anyway.
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Again, you miss the point. The FAA is the federal AVIATION administration. Not the Federal Aviation Administration and Department of Employee Records Division.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
“I’ve read the Final Rule, and it’s obvious you haven’t.”
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Oh, I read it, all 270+ pages.

Certain records are not subject to required contemporaneous reporting. Each operator
conducting PAO; air tour operations; and corporate flight departments are not required to report
training qualification and proficiency records, certain final disciplinary action records, or certain
records concerning separation of employment, unless and until they receive a request from a
reviewing entity. If, however, the record memorializes a disciplinary action resulting in
permanent or temporary removal of the pilot from aircraft operations or separation from
employment resulting in termination, the record must be reported to the PRD
contemporaneously.
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Sure doesn't seem to differentiate between aviation and non-aviation instances to me.

"He was fired because he likes to quote himself, and speak in the third person a lot on an internet forum."

"He had to many instances of having maintenance evaluate write ups that resulted in 'no defects noted, aircraft returned to service'"
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
If it’s that bad, don’t work there in the first place? Want to be a 121 major airline pilot? Skip the BS places and go straight to a 121 regional. Problem solved.
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Once again you reveal how clueless you are to anything outside your own experience. There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are plenty of pilots out there flying for the majors that started out in a 91/135 position. I know plenty of pilots that landed on their feet as an FO at a local operator doing 91/135 and climbed the ladder until they “made it”.

Also, by your logic a military pilot shouldn’t go 121 after their service obligation because they didn’t start at a 121 regional.
 
Acrofox said:
A company I used to work for had a "decent" reputation, and a decent operation that began to deteriorate. As it began to fall apart, the company started scheduling pilots for illegal flying (in the lower 48) non-stop. Eventually, when they accepted the trip, and the company "audited" the hours, they would come to the pilot and say that they were putting a PRIA-reportable letter in their file... but if they agreed to stay (6-12) more months, they'd remove the letter.

I believe there were people on here who are familiar with that/have had that happen to them.

That company is now out of business, but rumor has it that the former CP was well enough known to airline hiring departments for the nastygrams he put in pilot's PRIA records that he was universally turned down by all the airlines he applied to.

The company is out of business now, and as far as I know, their PRIA process is history. But if that info went straight into a database, they could basically retain pilots forever. And I can think of quite a few regionals and cargo operators that, from what I've heard, would happily follow suit to retain pilots. (read: keep pilot pay low)

I dunno.
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Many places take years to augur in. What start out as great places sometimes wind up with just a name on the hangar proceeded by “DBA”.

I’ve seen really class act operations wind up someplace to avoid like the plague. I’ve seen good management “move on”’or get “moved on” and some real turds take over.

Some times the word gets out, some times it doesn’t, sometimes people don’t care. It can be a real trap for the unwary.
 
CFI A&P said:
Once again you reveal how clueless you are to anything outside your own experience. There is more than one way to skin a cat and there are plenty of pilots out there flying for the majors that started out in a 91/135 position. I know plenty of pilots that landed on their feet as an FO at a local operator doing 91/135 and climbed the ladder until they “made it”.

Also, by your logic a military pilot shouldn’t go 121 after their service obligation because they didn’t start at a 121 regional.
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Context, Jedi. Some were complaining about crappy ass places. There are many more ways to get to a 121 mainline, true. The biggest advice I got (and some of that right here on JC) was to go to a 121 regional if the goal was a major airline.



You’ll have to excuse me when I don’t think highly of shady ass operators who might throw a letter in the file of a guy who refused a plane for safety. By that same token, how much you wanna bet there are operators who also play favors with people they like, and pass them in a training event in which they shouldn’t have passed?

Regardless. I don’t want the next Conrad or Renslow sitting next to me. Do you? While the FAA isn’t perfect, the NTSB came down on them during the atlas hearing about the database. Seems like the feds finally man up and decided to pull the trigger. Good.

I certainly feel for Acro’s story. But even she admits that it was going downhill and not the same it used to be. Why continue to put your certificate in the line for this? I can understand a pandemic and no other jobs available, but that was mostly 2020. Plenty of regionals hiring now.
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Context, Jedi. Some were complaining about crappy ass places. There are many more ways to get to a 121 mainline, true. The biggest advice I got (and some of that right here on JC) was to go to a 121 regional if the goal was a major airline.



You’ll have to excuse me when I don’t think highly of shady ass operators who might throw a letter in the file of a guy who refused a plane for safety. By that same token, how much you wanna bet there are operators who also play favors with people they like, and pass them in a training event in which they shouldn’t have passed?

Regardless. I don’t want the next Conrad or Renslow sitting next to me. Do you? While the FAA isn’t perfect, the NTSB came down on them during the atlas hearing about the database. Seems like the feds finally man up and decided to pull the trigger. Good.

I certainly feel for Acro’s story. But even she admits that it was going downhill and not the same it used to be. Why continue to put your certificate in the line for this? I can understand a pandemic and no other jobs available, but that was mostly 2020. Plenty of regionals hiring now.
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You know shady 121s exist also? One in particular that has a flow agreement and uses things like sick calls or other minor disciplinary indiscretions to delay that pilot’s flow. Some colleagues at that operator have told me how they’ve been unofficially warned that “Next time, you’ll be delayed...” So it isn’t just shady 91/135 employers that can abuse this system for revenge.

I agree that no employer should have the ability to place a vindictive letter in an airman’s file without due process.
 
CFI A&P said:
You know shady 121s exist also? One in particular that has a flow agreement and uses things like sick calls or other minor disciplinary indiscretions to delay that pilot’s flow. Some colleagues at that operator have told me how they’ve been unofficially warned that “Next time, you’ll be delayed...” So it isn’t just shady 91/135 employers that can abuse this system for revenge.

I agree that no employer should have the ability to place a vindictive letter in an airman’s file without due process.
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Which is why I’m not a fan of flows. It sucks, but if the goal is a major airline, get in the regional, get the time, get out ASAP. Some of these regionals sound like they hang the flow carrot in your face for getting whatever they want from the pilot. Sick compliance being one of them? Sick calls is a hit and miss. I personally flew with a guy who opened up and showed me his sick call spreadsheet he made, kept track of it, and said well this call is dropping out for 12 months, so he is gonna call out sick for this next trip (and points to it). That’s abuse and there ought to be a way to catch and discipline these pilots. Legitimate sick calls are legitimate amd those pilots shouldn’t face the bad music because others abuse it. It sucks, but as I like to say, remember it was a few bad apples that ruined it for everyone.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Which is why I’m not a fan of flows. It sucks, but if the goal is a major airline, get in the regional, get the time, get out ASAP. Some of these regionals sound like they hang the flow carrot in your face for getting whatever they want from the pilot. Sick compliance being one of them? Sick calls is a hit and miss. I personally flew with a guy who opened up and showed me his sick call spreadsheet he made, kept track of it, and said well this call is dropping out for 12 months, so he is gonna call out sick for this next trip (and points to it). That’s abuse and there ought to be a way to catch and discipline these pilots. Legitimate sick calls are legitimate amd those pilots shouldn’t face the bad music because others abuse it. It sucks, but as I like to say, remember it was a few bad apples that ruined it for everyone.
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Now you've opened up Pandora's box. Knowing that your co-worker is abusing the sick call policy, what did you do about it?
 
Richman said:
There's a lot of people who don't belong in management either, but there they are, in all their sociopathic glory. Somehow their off ramp involves promotions, raises and glory.
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No lies detected. Which is why some of the biggest hacks wind up in management.
 
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