Delta hints at Comair spinoff

[PhilosopherPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
Similarly, the FlightSafety Acedemy in Vero Beach, Florida, offers a career pilot selection and training program that leads directly to employment with Atlantic Southeast Airlines.

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Seems to me like they are preying on the uninformed and hoping they will read it as stated, you go to FSA and you will be hired by ASA. Sounds like they are making a guarantee to me.

Granted, I know this is in reference to the direct-track program, and is not false in that they will be hired by ASA should they complete the program, but can be very misleading to the ones who aren't aware of the program. Is this acceptable advertising to you after you bash DCA's?

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Well, to get into the ASA Direct Track program you must first pass an interview with ASA, not the other way around. Once they complete the program they are offered a conditional offer of employment, so no guarantee is necessary... (The condition being that you complete the ASA Indoc, etc.) I fail to see how that is anything like guaranteeing an interview upon completion of a course.

I don't really know all of the details of the ASA program, but I'm sure if you call they can help you out!

About the whole hierarchy thing... I was joking on my first post in this thread. I didn't really care to get into a long, drawn out, and irrelevant discussion of who owns who. Good grief. I don't really care who owns FSI, the Academy, or, frankly, who owns Comair Academy. All I know is my paycheck comes twice a month, and it says FSI! As long as it doesn't bounce, I'm happy.

When you want to discuss something that matters, let me know. Of course, if you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty, and the pig likes it, so I think I'm done arguing with you guys.

G

 

[FO_SHIZZLE]

Phil. Pilot, first off, I like your pig comment, hope you don't mind if I borrow it from time to time. Keep in mind, you helped fire up this thread with what seemed like a tongue in cheek comment about DCA ownership. If you "don't care who owns... 'Comair Academy'", then why in the world bring it up in the first place. If it was for the sake of a joke, the reaction should have been expected, given that we get grief from you guys pretty regularly.

I think Foz was trying to say that FSA also has some marketing that could be taken out of context and misunderstood by prospective students, which is what all you guys seem to complain about. FSA is a great school, I know a couple of people that went there and really liked it. In most internal workings, quality of instruction, structure, etc., it is much more similar than you care to admit. If you have some personal experience with attending DCA on more than a tour then please correct me, but it seems that all your facts are based on what you hear others say. Remember your signature, "A mind is like a parachute...".

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

As I've said before... I have personal experience with Comair Academy.

I expected a response. I just get tired of spinning around and around after a while.

I was just joking though. I just found what one of your people said amusing, and we were off!

No, I don't mind if you use the pig thing. You can thank my Dad for that one! It has kept me out of trouble from time to time...his words ringing in my ears...

G

 

[foztofly]

[ QUOTE ]
When you want to discuss something that matters, let me know. Of course, if you wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty, and the pig likes it, so I think I'm done arguing with you guys.

G

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be happy to when you bring up a credible topic and don't back off by saying "it was only a joke" after making several posts relating to that topic. As Fo Shizzle stated, I was making a point of how things can be misunderstood, but when it is your school that can be interpreted that way, you defend it, which is exactly what I have been doing here for DCA. As I said in my last post, you have a double-standard and apparently can't accept the fact that there is another school out there that is as good as, if not better than, the school you attend FOR SOME PEOPLE, NOT ALL. It all depends on the individual.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Listen dude, I made several posts to defend my logic, which someone called into question.

Where is the double standard? I see two completely different situations. Of course you want to make them the same, because you then can claim it is a double standard.

Regardless, I am tired of having to defend myself when I was joking about who owns Comair Academy! Read my first posts in this thread. In the first one I was laughing, in the second THAT WAS A JOKE!

Read this paragraph very, very carefully. I don't give a crap who owns Comair Academy, or FlightSafety Academy for that matter. I think it is really amusing that it matters so much to you guys. (It matters to you because your whole marketing strategy is hinged on it...) Hence the joke, and hence my infinite amusement that this has gotten so blown out of proportion.

So, that said, drop the subject. Joke over!

G

 

[foztofly]

The double-standard lies in the fact that you were so adamant in bashing DCA for using "Connection" when you claim there is in fact no connection. When we tell you that there is indeed a connection through the corporate ladder, and then you respond using FSI instead of FSA and say there is no distinction there, when there is, you get bent out of shape. If you were joking, fine. But for those of us that read this forum, and see how worked up you are getting after being shown that you are wrong, it doesn't seem like you are responding to what may have started as a joke as you so claim. And you are getting tired of having to defend yourself??? Waaa Waaa Waaa. Don't post things that give us a chance to defend ourselves and then cry about having to defend yourself because we responded. What matters to "us guys" is that our school is accurately represented. When people like you have to cater to your ego and try to bash someplace that may be equally as good as where you attend just so you can feel good about your decision to attend there, we are going to defend our school. I don't remember a time when someone from DCA ever said anything bad about FSA. I'm sure it has probably happened, but not regularly to stick out. We don't have to stoop that low to make ourselves feel better about choosing DCA. I'm sure if we wanted to come up with "stuff" to bash FSA we could. I made one example of a marketing line in FSI's advertising about FSA that could be very misleading, but we don't harp on it. As long as you continue to make comments that warrant a defense, I am going to respond. However, I am starting to see how most of your posts will no longer require a rebuttal because the readers will now know they are bs and you would just back out anyway once you are shown that you are wrong. As far as the marketing aspect, our whole strategy is hinged on it? Yes, part of it is, your school would probably do the same if owned by an airline. You can't say no one else wouldn't do it, because no one else is owned by an airline. It only makes sense from a marketing standpoint to make that distinction. Yet another example of how you attempt to bash DCA but have no merit on which to do so. Glad you find it so amusing though. I do too... but it isn't the ad I am laughing at. BTW, you say you don't care but how many posts did you make trying to defend yourself.... errr I mean continuing with your joke?

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

It is obvious that you guys just aren't going to drop this, so sure, I'll continue beating the dead horse. I'll have to respond to the true content of your post later, as I'm traveling back to SC soon.

I defended myself because (if you look back) you guys began a nasty tone, and a personal insult. Who wouldn't strike back?

Quickly, regarding the "connection" thing, I've never denied that you guys are owned by Delta. Whether you are able to use the word "connection" and whether it is ethical to do so are two different claims. You guys choose to combine the two. (If you are able, then it must be ethical.) That doesn't follow. There are plenty of things in life that you are able to do legally that are ethically in question.

The other claim you made, that if FlightSafety Academy was owned by an airline, we would do the same, might be true. Who knows? But if they did, I would be speaking out against that too. It's not the company I'm attacking, but the marketing practices.

I knew that if I tried to bow out gracefully you guys would jump on it. I will defend my positions one last time once I get home, and if you can't handle it, tough. I'm not wasting my time any more.

G

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Also, I just walked down the hall and spoke to one of our people in the payroll office.

I asked specifically, "What is the relationship between FlightSafety Academy vis a vis FlightSafety International?" She responded, "Well, we are FlightSafety International." I asked her to clarify, and she said, "We are a learning center of FlightSafety International. We do business as FlightSafety Academy, but as far as a corporate distinction, there is none."

In other words Foz, we are not a wholly owned subsidiary of anyone, just like I told you before. There is no distinction! How many times do I have to repeat that?

Again, I don't think it is relevant at all! I don't care who owns us, who owns you, or anything. It was a JOKE that you guys wouldn't be owned by Delta if they spun it off!

But apparently the fact that I don't really care means that I must have been wrong before...

G

 

[foztofly]

Looking back I don't see the personal attack or nasty tone that we started. Yes, Planediveguy tried to correct you, but you pulled out your Modus Ponens stuff trying to intellectually defend your statement previously. I don't think it was a personal attack on his part, but if you feel so, and knowing him as well as I do, I would be willing to bet he would apologize, as would I if I had started the personal attacks. You are right in that we are beating a dead horse. I've made my point and quite frankly stick by everything I have said. You say you have tried to graciously bow out, but once again, I don't see that, unless your statement to me "just drop it" was graciously. As far as "ethical" marketing, you think using the word "connection" makes it unethical? You are now at the point where you have nothing else to try and bash our school on other than to try and call the marketing unethical. Which, is where this all started in the first place, attacking our marketing. Talk about letting it go. Quite frankly, it is obvious I can "handle" your claims and your defense so I am not worried about what you may conjour up while traveling home. Honestly, I don't even want to read anything else you have to say about DCA. I've made my point and done so without having to stop and think about how I can "philosophize" my way through it. Quite frankly, I think it is a shame where 2 people that one day may be sharing a cockpit have to defend their school and ultimately themselves because pride and ego get in the way. I have resorted to arguments here that I normally would walk away from. And for that, I am embarrassed.

Hope everyone has a Happy Holiday.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Fair enough. I agree that normally I would walk away from this argument in person too. No hard feelings here.

Merry Christmas

G

 

[Pirep]

[ QUOTE ]


FSI has a "connection" with ASA you know, and they are a Delta Connection carrier, or do I need to spoon feed that you too?

FSI has the direct track program with ASA
FSI doesn't need to stoop to the level of "other" schools, and change their name to "Connection" anything...

If you finish you Commercial, Instrument, Multi-engine rating at FSI, you can interview with ASA and ExpressJet for the direct track program. You don't even have to have been hired as an instructor, much less instruct for 800 hours. You don't have to be owned by an airline to have a "connection."

Don't act smug if you're on the losing side of an argument. It saves you from getting the ole Foot in Mouth disease...

G

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Don't forget to add that after you pay for those ratings, they are drooling to take your $30,000 plus (that's what it was 3 years ago so I imagine it's now closer to $40,000) for the jet direct program. A good program to make money on a sim that wasn't getting used to it's potential (Saab sim). Nothing like taking a course in a turboprop sim for a job in a jet. Great marketing and efficient use on unused equipment to sell that course. Not a big fan of jet direct programs if you couldn't tell.


[ QUOTE ]

Regardless, my point is merely that if Comair Spins off, it will create a little havoc for your marketing deptartment. Nothing more, nothing less. My first post was a joke man. Get over it.

I think the whole "connection" thing is a joke too. (I'm not alone here.) There just really is no way to justify it.



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I doubt it will create any new havoc with marketing. It's always been "interesting", but got the job done (although not as good as it could be). Not too many of you guys remember what the school was like pre-DCA. Like when Comair went on strike. At that point, other airlines were lining up at the door to be part of that "guarenteed interview". If I remember correctly it was a choice of seven airlines for your interview. Then the whole DCA thing happened. Then your choice was with any Delta Connection carrier. (There's your connection) Five airlines to choose from. Not a bad deal. Now Philospherpilot, I have a question for you. You instruct at a school, you finish your obligation, and then they say pick one of these Connection carriers that you want to go to and we'll set up the interview. Do you say "No thanks, I think this whole Connection thing is a joke!" ? That's what I thought.

Everyone on here argues good and really, really bad points. The bottom line is this. FSA good school. CAA, DCA or whatever it has/is/will be is a good school. Can't speak for FSA, but DCA seems to always get their instructors a good job, and that's what I thought most guys go to these schools for. The bashing gets old, (although having actually been through CAA's/DCA's program I guess I would be the one that could actually lend a little credence to the bash, as opposed to Ppilot and montanapilot, and I could bash on certain things

) All I can say is, all the negativity in certain peoples voices will surely bite them in the ass one day. It's amazing how it usually come out in airline interviews.

So on that point, after not ever attending DCA, maybe you guys could learn something from it without paying a dime. If not, go negative then see if it did anything for your position in life. Alright, enough of this, I have an early show in what Philosopherpilot would call a joke. Yes, Delta Connection Academy lined up my interview with a Connection carrier and what a great connection it has been.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
You instruct at a school, you finish your obligation, and then they say pick one of these Connection carriers that you want to go to and we'll set up the interview. Do you say "No thanks, I think this whole Connection thing is a joke!" ?

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No, I would just choose to go to a school that didn't practice unethical marketing practices in the first place.

I came close to going to Pan Am, until I read negative things about them, and actually asked them some tough questions. I was told by a Comair gate agent about Comair, and seriously considered it until I spoke with a Comair Academy instructor, as well as a Comair student who was a friend of mine who "wished he had gone to FSI." That's how I learned about FSI, at the very very last second, and the rest is history.

Regarding the direct track program at FSI, we are getting an ERJ sim next month, so no more Saab. And I think our direct track program costs in the low 20's. I don't know the exact number, so I won't quote it, but it is below $25,000. I didn't do it because I was actually looking forward to instructing. (And I am now really enjoying instructing.) For some it may be the better option, the direct track. I personally think that you get something from instructing that you just can't get from a direct program. Then again, the other career option I was considering before flight school was grad school so I could teach at the college level, so I guess it's no surprise that I like instructing.

Now, as far as negativity, I'm not a negative person at all, especially about aviation. I love aviation, I love flying, I love instructing, and I can't wait to fly for the airlines, corporate, or whatever comes along. I don't hate Comair Academy, I don't hate Pan Am, I don't hate any of them at all. In fact, the differences I have with them come out when people visit your school then come to ours, so I have no worries. (I think Pan Am still owes me $500 though...lol)

Anyway, as I said before, sorry for getting snippy. This conversation could be had in a perfectly civilized manner, should we all agree to it. But, the horse is dead. We should just bury it, and move on.

G

 

[FO_SHIZZLE]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally think that you get something from instructing that you just can't get from a direct program. Then again, the other career option I was considering before flight school was grad school so I could teach at the college level, so I guess it's no surprise that I like instructing.


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I could not agree more. Nothing like flight instructing to remind you how much you don't know. I look back 400 hours ago as a freshly minted CFII and realize now that the real learning has taken place since then. It has humbled me and I realize that 400 hours from now, I'll look back and realize how much I still had to learn at this point. I'm sure that cycle will continue for the rest of my career. Plus it teaches patience, understanding, compromise, comuunication skills and gives you a little insight into human behavior. These are very important skills to have no matter what your job is.

There are, however, some other flight jobs that offer very valuable learning experiences prior to reaching the airlines. I have always been incredibly impressed by the guys and gals flying cargo in light twins at all hours of the night in IMC, God-awful weather and single pilot no less. Seems like a real gut check every time they leave the ground. My hat's off to those guys.

Happy Holidays folks

 

[DE727UPS]

What kind of times did you have when you got hired? With those times, could you have got an interview without the guarantee?

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
There are, however, some other flight jobs that offer very valuable learning experiences prior to reaching the airlines. I have always been incredibly impressed by the guys and gals flying cargo in light twins at all hours of the night in IMC, God-awful weather and single pilot no less. Seems like a real gut check every time they leave the ground. My hat's off to those guys.

Happy Holidays folks

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That was some of the best flying I did in my career. Very close second to some of my other flying in terms of varying conditions, excitement, and job satisfaction.

 

[Pirep]

[ QUOTE ]


No, I would just choose to go to a school that didn't practice unethical marketing practices in the first place.

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I don't see where their marketing is unethical. I see it often as bad, but not unethical. No crime there, but I guess you have to read through the sales pitch. I picked CAA over FSI because of end results, (the numbers placed with airline jobs after building hours) not marketing. I received everything I was told I could receive from CAA. Once again, nothing unethical there.

[ QUOTE ]

Regarding the direct track program at FSI, we aregetting an ERJ sim next month, so no more Saab. And I think our direct track program costs in the low 20's. I don't know the exact number, so I won't quote it, but it is below $25,000. I didn't do it because I was actually looking forward to instructing. (And I am now really enjoying instructing.) For some it may be the better option, the direct track. I personally think that you get something from instructing that you just can't get from a direct program. Then again, the other career option I was considering before flight school was grad school so I could teach at the college level, so I guess it's no surprise that I like instructing.



[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I never knew a flight school to actually drop prices. I knew for a fact it used to be over $30K ( A friend did the course at FSI years ago). A heavy price to pay if you bust out of FO training. At least if you spend your money on a CFI cert, you can fall back on that if you bust out of training or (God forbid) you get furloughed. That's why I don't think these courses are good for some low time pilots. Many don't have the experience to handle FO training and then get a pink ticket from airline training on their record that they will always have to explain. You'll learn alot and gain valuable experience from being a good CFI. But once again, if it works for you like it did my friend, great. If it doesn't, your out $30K with diddly to show for it.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't hate Comair Academy, I don't hate Pan Am, I don't hate any of them at all. In fact, the differences I have with them come out when people visit your school then come to ours, so I have no worries. (I think Pan Am still owes me $500 though...lol)



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You can admit it. You don't like CAA (DCA). It's okay to say it out loud to yourself. You wouldn't post in their forum the way you do if you didn't semi-loath them. It's okay. The smart man goes with what is best for him. I wanted a job flying jets for an airline. CAA helped me achieve that very well. I hope FSI does the same for you. I'm sure that's why you are going there, it works for you. (and I'm sure it was the marketing and the marketing only that swayed you to go there because it was so ethical it brought a tear to your eye.

)


I have to tell you that your name "philosopherpilot" reminds me of a great line from a great movie.

-What's your job?

= Stand-up Philosopher!

-Oh, a B*ll Sh#t artists!

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to tell you that your name "philosopherpilot" reminds me of a great line from a great movie.

-What's your job?

= Stand-up Philosopher!

-Oh, a B*ll Sh#t artists!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL The name comes from a friend who basically said the same thing to me. "Let me get this straight, you majored in philosophy, but you're a pilot?" And it was all down hill from there. Before long, I had a nickname...

Anyway, no, I don't hate Comair Academy, I just think they are shady. Big difference.

G


One of my favorite quotes pokes a little fun at philosophy...

"Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that all others are jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself."
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

*Edited to fix my code typo...