Dallas Executive Mid-Air / B-17 - P-63

said how do you know the B17 wasn’t out of position? Very fair question on her part. Of course with two pilots up front you would hope they both would have been aware of their speed, altitude, position over ground, and timing of that position. regardless, sad event..

truthfully, it doesn’t matter. The B-17 is a duck. Wherever it’s at, its flying a predictable, stable flight path. The job of the much more maneuverable, and actively maneuvering, fighter plane, that is the aircraft closing on the B-17 from behind the B-17s blind spot, is to not hit other aircraft. Part of being formation trained, is to have the eyeballs caged and calibrated to such point that one is able to judge all kinds of angles and closure rates instantly and as they are developing, no matter how rapidly; and not hit chit in the air. That’s the #1 rule of formation flying.
 
While speculative at this point, I'd say that something along those lines is the most plausible explanation of why this happened.

I'll be interested to hear the comms of this incident, especially from the air boss.

im just saying what the turn circles, the closure rates, and the positions of the other fighters seems to demonstrate. It would indeed need to be ascertained whether the two formations were together or separate, and what any comms reveal.
 
I personally suspect that they were operating in two different groups which weren't supposed to be in the same airspace at all, and that the p-63 pilot overcooked it and tunnel-visioned trying to rejoin, then golden bb'ed in to the b-17 which he couldn't have seen from that attitude, even if he'd been looking. But that's pure guess-work, and the details remain to be discovered (at least publicly.) What isn't or at least shouldn't be in dispute is that this sort of thing doesn't "just happen", and while there is an inherent degree of risk to airshows, two apparently 100% functional aircraft colliding shouldn't be considered part of it.
 
I personally suspect that they were operating in two different groups which weren't supposed to be in the same airspace at all, and that the p-63 pilot overcooked it and tunnel-visioned trying to rejoin, then golden bb'ed in to the b-17 which he couldn't have seen from that attitude, even if he'd been looking. But that's pure guess-work, and the details remain to be discovered (at least publicly.) What isn't or at least shouldn't be in dispute is that this sort of thing doesn't "just happen", and while there is an inherent degree of risk to airshows, two apparently 100% functional aircraft colliding shouldn't be considered part of it.

assuming your contention is true, that they were operating as two separate formations….the fighters and the bombers; the next question would be, what was the written and briefed plan for this conga line of aircraft making passes down the runway. Were the two formations to be separate, or was it planned to have them intermixed, in a sense, and just making the passes by themselves? Were they supposed to be at a particular altitude, airspeed, or ground track? All of these would be secondary contributing factors of findings, as none would be causal to an accident; they would moreso reveal what plans, if any were in effect, whether those plans were viable, and whether they were being followed. Secondary factors to help understand the primary factors and how those could have occurred or been facilitated. This is where interviews of the other aircrews involved and the Air Boss, as well collection of any written evidence, comes into play.
 
Formation flying is not a gaggle-frack of airplanes going the same way, on the same day. It is far, far more than that. A fact many pilots not fully trained in it, don’t understand the full gravity of.

Part of being formation trained, is to have the eyeballs caged and calibrated to such point that one is able to judge all kinds of angles and closure rates instantly and as they are developing, no matter how rapidly; and not hit chit in the air. That’s the #1 rule of formation flying.

One ride in fingertip with a few crossunders and echelon turns makes your point incredibly clear.
 
it can indeed be a low bar to satisfy, for the FAA. Look at the B-17 crash in Connecticut, with paying passengers too. Had a “Flight Engineer” onboard who didn’t even possess so much as an FE-Recip certificate. Possessed nothing, yet acting in that capacity. Warbird crash after warbird crash, most often flown by someone with lots of money and no experience. Had one right here in Chandler years ago. Managed to put a Mustang into the side of a hangar on a go around and mort himself and his airplane. Even some high time airline pilot, the flying type doesn’t translate over to single seat high performance planes, if not coming from that background.

To this day, I won’t fly formation flights with anyone not specifically mil trained in form with high performance aircraft. Whether close formation or tactical formation. If someone doesn’t have the knowledge, training, experience, and SA for 100% of what formation flying calls for, then it’s a no go. Whether it’s basic form consisting of position, pitchouts, rejoins, cross unders (cross overs if helicopter), etc; the pilot better understand the roles, responsibilities and operations of every formation position they are going to be involved in, whether leader or wingman. And that doesn’t even get into formation takeoffs, approaches, and landings, which are their own set of knowledge, skills, abilities and SA that need to be learned, understood, and executed 100%, 100% of the time; in order to avoid getting aircraft broken and people killed.

Formation flying is not a gaggle-frack of airplanes going the same way, on the same day. It is far, far more than that. A fact many pilots not fully trained in it, don’t understand the full gravity of.

At the end of the day, the P-63 Is at fault. The question will be what factors led up to that, as in where did the pilot of the P-63 lose SA on the B-17, assuming he ever had it in the first place, and if so, why was it not corrected or regained?. If the B-17 disappeared into the large blind spot under/forward of the P-63 nose, why wasn’t that immediately corrected/regained/avoided? This was standard VMC Mk1 eyeball see and avoid, and clear your own flight path, in terms of primary factors. Sure, there are limitations to see and avoid…..namely for unplanned aircraft that are not part of your flight; it shouldn’t be an issue nor a surprise for aircraft you are flying with/around, who are part of your activity and that one should already be aware of SA-wise. Any internal comms should hopefully shed some more light on this.

it’s a stroke of luck that there were no paying passengers onboard and that this happened to be a display flight where passengers aren’t carried, and that the aircraft wreckage impacted in the infield grass inside the airport boundaries and didn’t injure or kill anyone on the ground.
Agree. I got slated for expecting people to hold the right certs only to be told it could be flown single pilot. Much looked fishy especially the chief pilot.

 
Why? Again, six families lost people here. It was not a professional endeavor to provide food on the table for their families. It was not a grand endeavor to better humanity in some way. It is not a patriotic thing to better the country or protect it. It is pure entertainment. I find it incredibly hard to justify a loss of life for this. It seems incredibly selfish.
ive got to agree with Todd here, though I think his point isn’t broad enough.


My concern is not with operators at an air show or their families… though my heart breaks for them. They knew the risks and accepted them.


No, my concern is for the Johnson family that saw tickets for sale at a 7-11 and thought it looked like a neat way to spend a Saturday that may or may not wind up with and airplane crashing into the stands they’re sitting in. The Johnsons very well may not understand the risks.
 
Agree. I got slated for expecting people to hold the right certs only to be told it could be flown single pilot. Much looked fishy especially the chief pilot.


I will bark back at this. I flew the CF B-17 and while I will hold my personal opinions of the operation and the accident away from this thread. I have been, and still am personal friends with the chief pilot. He is a great guy and not causal to that accident.

There is no official FE certification so there is absolutely no issue when people in said positions don't actually hold an FE cert in these aircraft. It takes an act of god for the FAA to understand the concept of issuing SIC certs on these airplanes because they predate crewmember certification.
 
Should we ban auto racing too?

They threw away the mold when they made Todd. Anti-mask, pro-gun, anti-air show, anti woke, pro union,Tesla driver.

The barriers to entry to fly a B-17 or P-63, while not as high as they possibly could be, are significantly higher than say...the barriers to entry for an 18 year old to buy an AR-15 in Texas and mow down 19 children and 2 adults. Or to drive a car. Both of which are necessary per Todd, but puts "innocent citizens" at higher risk than the CAF airshows. It seems incongruent to me.
 
The barriers to entry to fly a B-17 or P-63, while not as high as they possibly could be, are significantly higher than say...the barriers to entry for an 18 year old to buy an AR-15 in Texas and mow down 19 children and 2 adults. Or to drive a car. Both of which are necessary per Todd, but puts "innocent citizens" at higher risk than the CAF airshows. It seems incongruent to me.

Excuse me, but AR’s are ordained by Gawd as a human right. God never said anything about warbirds
 
He didn't say they broke the mold, he said they threw it away. It's out there, somewhere.

Waiting. Biding its time...
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