Climate-friendly air travel - say what?

That oil is going to be drilled for. That power plant is going to keep producing. Those strip mines are going to still to be digging. Because people demand heat in the winter, goods to be shipped in a day from a warehouse, and to carry half a dozen rechargeable Devices on their person at a given time.
Nobody's saying it's not, but maybe we should be investing in something other than a dying 20th century method of power production. Yet here we are, moving backwards away from cleaner technology because "muh coal jerbs!" I'm not getting in anyone's face about how they live their life, but if someone comes at me with some "hurr durr it's a Chinese conspiracy" crap, I'm not going to nod politely.
 
And negates his contributions to the good fight for all the carbon emissions he then goes and puts out......unless maybe he's buying the scam called carbon credits?

It's called a cop out. That's like saying that since there's already trash alongside the highway, it's no big deal if I litter too because someone is going to anyway, right?

Who cares what other people are going to do or not do? That shouldn't be the basis of one's moral stance on things.

People talk a big game, right up until it affects their livelihood or profession, or something they like. Then the excuses follow.

It's called virtue signaling and it's everywhere nowadays.
 
That's a cop out.
"Drugs are bad, but if I don't do them someone else will"
"Murder is bad, but if I don't kill that sumbitch he'll still die someday"
"Stealing is bad but if I don't rob this convenience store the money will just end up with a crooked banker"

This is a straw man argument - everyone else in the world isn't using drugs, murder in general, and knocking over convenience stores.
 
Nobody's saying it's not, but maybe we should be investing in something other than a dying 20th century method of power production. Yet here we are, moving backwards away from cleaner technology because "muh coal jerbs!" I'm not getting in anyone's face about how they live their life, but if someone comes at me with some "hurr durr it's a Chinese conspiracy" crap, I'm not going to nod politely.

There are pragmatic ways to approach that. The problem is that's not the way it was being approached at all for the last decade. The people in the wheel house were creating legislation with the intent to kill an industry while bankrupting swaths of some of the Midwest and Appalachian regions is not a fair an equitable approach to environmental protection. Having family in those regions I can tell you it would be no less devastating than if we went to the Central Valley in California and passed ridiculous restrictions on agricultural water usage to put an anchor on agriculture. What's more some of the most vocal forces to do such were seeing massive funds redirected within their own districts for things in the form of farming subsidies.

The problem with the eco lobby has been the same as any other divisive cause, the people supporting it are just loud mouth easily mobilized masses who do little to no research. Look at Seattle two years ago. You had groups of people protesting an exploratory oil drill platform being in the sound. That would be fine, if they weren't protesting it by kayaking out to it in a polymer kayak wearing fleece to scream about how oil drilling is wrong.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.


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There are pragmatic ways to approach that. The problem is that's not the way it was being approached at all for the last decade. The people in the wheel house were creating legislation with the intent to kill an industry while bankrupting swaths of some of the Midwest and Appalachian regions is not a fair an equitable approach to environmental protection. Having family in those regions I can tell you it would be no less devastating than if we went to the Central Valley in California and passed ridiculous restrictions on agricultural water usage to put an anchor on agriculture. What's more some of the most vocal forces to do such were seeing massive funds redirected within their own districts for things in the form of farming subsidies.

The problem with the eco lobby has been the same as any other divisive cause, the people supporting it are just loud mouth easily mobilized masses who do little to no research. Look at Seattle two years ago. You had groups of people protesting an exploratory oil drill platform being in the sound. That would be fine, if they weren't protesting it by kayaking out to it in a polymer kayak wearing fleece to scream about how oil drilling is wrong.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.


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I mean...except for you can? I hate this argument, because it's totally disingenuous - you wouldn't support these people if they paddled up in a seal-skin qayak in qaspeks and mukluks - you'd throw out some nonsense about, "psha, how can these people be liberals? Look at all the marine mammals they had to kill to make the boat!" The truth is, we can do way better with our energy production, but we don't because of "market forces." But no, if a guy didn't use a locally sourced strip built kayak with ikmik for glue he's a total hypocrite when protesting the oil companies, amirite? This is nonsense - it's some sort of mix between a straw man argument and an ad hominem attack. Let's face it, you give these people a hard time because you're a conservative and like to feel like you're more ideologically pure than these people and the fact that generally (and on this I can sympathize) the type of people who'd paddle their kayak out to block an oil rig tend to be annoying - I get that, however they're not really wrong about . I'd personally suggest that protesting oil and gas development in a plastic boat is probably less hypocritical than, say, being pro-life but also supporting the war and the death penalty which is pretty common in conservative circles (probably more common than those who'd paddle out to harass Shell), but I digress.

We can drill more responsibly but we don't because doing so is expensive and we've prioritized economic prosperity over the environment. That is one of the fundamental (and seemingly intractable) problems of capitalism. Our civilization depends on oil yes - but we can extract it cleanly and safely while we reduce our reliance on oil in the mean time. This is actually something that 100% positively NEEDS to happen if we expect to survive as a species in the long run. If protesting drilling rigs with kayaks is how people raise awareness on this topic, then so be it. I say this as someone who fundamentally agrees with exploration for oil and gas in the arctic.

Before you tell me I'm some kind of hypocrite for flying around in airplanes and living in Alaska - you should know, I am a major supporter of oil and gas exploration and extraction. Energy production is literally the linchpin that holds our entire society together - but I will not condone it being done irresponsibly. I have what's called a "nuanced perspective" on the issue - something that's doesn't seem to be very common these days. See - the problem is not that we're doing the drilling so much as it is the case that the consequences for a screw up are pretty extreme and we're using old-ass equipment to do it. I imagine you can probably relate to that a bit, but the pipeline is old as hell, the rigs are old (hell the Polar Pioneer was built in '85), and there's no real incentive to invest tons of money into infrastructure. Because of the power some of these companies have, the ships are flagged in foreign countries where labor laws and safety laws are substantially less rigorous and the taxes are less. The stuff that is new and nice is often run by subcontractors so that there's plausible deniability when things go wrong (just read up on how Deepwater Horizon went down).

Shell is a bit of an example - a few years back they grounded the Kulluk on Sitkalidak island down by Old Harbor because they didn't have their poop together and because there were tax advantages to moving things when they did. If you read about Shell in Nigeria you'll probably be upset (seriously the history is F-ed up). Just recently in my local area an underwater pipeline ruptured and leaked natural gas for months. I think energy is great - hell, I'd love to WORK for an oil company. It's been my experience that oil companies are incredibly self-aware about past follies and the execs I have personally interacted with strive to do the right thing; sometimes that's not enough and the rest of society needs to step in and say, "Nah, dude, that ain't ok." Ideally that's with laws and balanced discussion, but sometimes that takes too long, or isn't sexy enough to rile up the public. The bottom line is, I will not tolerate negligence in the energy sector just as I wouldn't tolerate it in aviation and am fine with protests like this and I think most people should be. We have to do the right thing, and it's painfully obvious what that is in the long run. I understand that there are currently few viable alternatives to fossil fuels (to include coal) - but we need to begin the arduous process of solving this problem before it is too late.

I think the appropriate analogy to draw is smoking. If you've been smoking for 20 years, quitting cold turkey may not be something you can muster. Sure, it'd be better if we could quit oil and coal tomorrow, but we can't, the stress would give society a heart attack - instead, we've got to start chewing the gum (solar / wind) and vaping (natural gas) while we get off of Marlboro Menthol 100s with a dip in (oil and coal). The days of coal miners in WV and roughnecks in TX and AK are going to have to come to a close. It's not option in the long run to continue doing what we're doing to the environment - we need alternative energy, and it's going to suck as we transition, but it's not optional.
 
I mean...except for you can? I hate this argument, because it's totally disingenuous - you wouldn't support these people if they paddled up in a seal-skin qayak in qaspeks and mukluks - you'd throw out some nonsense about, "psha, how can these people be liberals? Look at all the marine mammals they had to kill to make the boat!" The truth is, we can do way better with our energy production, but we don't because of "market forces." But no, if a guy didn't use a locally sourced strip built kayak with ikmik for glue he's a total hypocrite when protesting the oil companies, amirite? This is nonsense - it's some sort of mix between a straw man argument and an ad hominem attack. Let's face it, you give these people a hard time because you're a conservative and like to feel like you're more ideologically pure than these people and the fact that generally (and on this I can sympathize) the type of people who'd paddle their kayak out to block an oil rig tend to be annoying - I get that, however they're not really wrong about . I'd personally suggest that protesting oil and gas development in a plastic boat is probably less hypocritical than, say, being pro-life but also supporting the war and the death penalty which is pretty common in conservative circles (probably more common than those who'd paddle out to harass Shell), but I digress.

We can drill more responsibly but we don't because doing so is expensive and we've prioritized economic prosperity over the environment. That is one of the fundamental (and seemingly intractable) problems of capitalism. Our civilization depends on oil yes - but we can extract it cleanly and safely while we reduce our reliance on oil in the mean time. This is actually something that 100% positively NEEDS to happen if we expect to survive as a species in the long run. If protesting drilling rigs with kayaks is how people raise awareness on this topic, then so be it. I say this as someone who fundamentally agrees with exploration for oil and gas in the arctic.

Before you tell me I'm some kind of hypocrite for flying around in airplanes and living in Alaska - you should know, I am a major supporter of oil and gas exploration and extraction. Energy production is literally the linchpin that holds our entire society together - but I will not condone it being done irresponsibly. I have what's called a "nuanced perspective" on the issue - something that's doesn't seem to be very common these days. See - the problem is not that we're doing the drilling so much as it is the case that the consequences for a screw up are pretty extreme and we're using old-ass equipment to do it. I imagine you can probably relate to that a bit, but the pipeline is old as hell, the rigs are old (hell the Polar Pioneer was built in '85), and there's no real incentive to invest tons of money into infrastructure. Because of the power some of these companies have, the ships are flagged in foreign countries where labor laws and safety laws are substantially less rigorous and the taxes are less. The stuff that is new and nice is often run by subcontractors so that there's plausible deniability when things go wrong (just read up on how Deepwater Horizon went down).

Shell is a bit of an example - a few years back they grounded the Kulluk on Sitkalidak island down by Old Harbor because they didn't have their poop together and because there were tax advantages to moving things when they did. If you read about Shell in Nigeria you'll probably be upset (seriously the history is F-ed up). Just recently in my local area an underwater pipeline ruptured and leaked natural gas for months. I think energy is great - hell, I'd love to WORK for an oil company. It's been my experience that oil companies are incredibly self-aware about past follies and the execs I have personally interacted with strive to do the right thing; sometimes that's not enough and the rest of society needs to step in and say, "Nah, dude, that ain't ok." Ideally that's with laws and balanced discussion, but sometimes that takes too long, or isn't sexy enough to rile up the public. The bottom line is, I will not tolerate negligence in the energy sector just as I wouldn't tolerate it in aviation and am fine with protests like this and I think most people should be. We have to do the right thing, and it's painfully obvious what that is in the long run. I understand that there are currently few viable alternatives to fossil fuels (to include coal) - but we need to begin the arduous process of solving this problem before it is too late.

I think the appropriate analogy to draw is smoking. If you've been smoking for 20 years, quitting cold turkey may not be something you can muster. Sure, it'd be better if we could quit oil and coal tomorrow, but we can't, the stress would give society a heart attack - instead, we've got to start chewing the gum (solar / wind) and vaping (natural gas) while we get off of Marlboro Menthol 100s with a dip in (oil and coal). The days of coal miners in WV and roughnecks in TX and AK are going to have to come to a close. It's not option in the long run to continue doing what we're doing to the environment - we need alternative energy, and it's going to suck as we transition, but it's not optional.

In the same voice you say "we can do better!" You directly criticize the methods that have proven to actually be better (pipelines). That's exactly what I'm talking about.

That was at the heart of the whole Key Stone pipeline stupidity. The same people screaming we must stop it at all costs, it's for the environment here in Washington were left dumbfounded last year when an oil train spilled along the Columbia. News flash to those activists, the oil still has to move. Now it's just moving through a less safe means which was lobbied for with money to organize those groups deadest against oil by a guy who came out (big shock) against pipelines. Pragmatic does not equal ignorant. Unfortunately these people aren't being pragmatic, they want an end to oil drilling, oil pipelines, oil anything because they've been told by their echo chamber that big oil = evil. You can criticize and you can place demands for a minimum level of accountability. That's not at all what was happening in Seattle. And yes those people are useful idiots making no point when their argument is countered by their life style.


It's as dumb as people that yell about hunting being immoral and then go eat a steak. Or better yet that we shouldn't do it because it's against nature when they simply fail to understand that regular hunting is a conservation requirement because we killed off all the apex predators. I can't help it if when it comes to environmentalism to many people on the left side of the political spectrum seem to place more on being pationate rather than intelligent. And yes somebody truly living off the land would have more impact with their statement demanding draconian environmentalism from their dugout canoe wearing buckskins. At least they practice what they preach.

And yes I have the same problem with Baptists going to Liquor stores. Don't tell me it's a sin to buy beer on a day of the week convenient to you.
 
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Look what happened with coal when the climate crazies started to get their hands on legislation directed at that industry.

If they had their ways we'd all be paying 90% taxes and living underground walking to our destinations.

I get it to a point, but the vast majority of human impact on the environment is population growth yet they won't touch that with a 10-ft pole. Elon Musk finally sent out something addressing it a few days ago which was pretty much ignored.

Have you been to China and breathed that air in for any length of time? Coal died in the US for a reason.
 
Have you been to China and breathed that air in for any length of time? Coal died in the US for a reason.

Coal hasn't died in the US or anywhere else for that matter. The simple fact is trough pragmatic approaches to clean air/water along with huge technology leaps in efficiency the power plants of today are not the power plants of 1971 Cleveland. That doesn't mean it's not heavily leaned on or that tomorrow we could just drop everything stop burning coal and pat ourselves on the back because we are saving the world without massive backlash to the way of life we enjoy in the US. We don't see it because what we think of and what coal looks like today don't match. China has no such regulations and is still operating decades behind us in technology to meet its exponential demand. Remember that was a country that was largely in the feudal system while we were busy building the Atom bomb. They've had to abandon a lot of safety/precautions/cleanliness to catch up as their economy has exploded over the last few decades.

Same could be said for diesel power vs gas. While the rest of the world uses oil burners primarily we seem dead set to fight a form of combustion that is far and above more efficient at delivering energy because during the 70s diesel was associated with huge clouds of soot bellowing from a tailpipe. It looks nothing like that today, but the burden placed on it (thanks in particular to California) make it largely unmarketable when gas is so plentiful here.
 

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