Charter airline Champion Air going out of business

Status
Not open for further replies.
PCL_128 said:
Not really. Like I said, there's a difference between knowingly undercutting the profession and just being a noob who doesn't know better. Newbies going to GIA or non-union regionals are not the same as experienced air line pilots choosing to go to places like Skybus. They know better.
Click to expand...

So if someone does not know something is wrong and hurtful to our profession, that means it is not wrong and hurtful to our profession?

That is like someone saying that they did not know the speed limit in the school zone was 20 MPH, so they should not get a ticket after doing 50 MPH in that area. That argument does not hold water, and neither does the comparisons between Gulfstream and SkyBus. Each is harmful to our profession, regardless of whether someone did or did not do their homework before going to work for those companies.
 
FlyChicaga said:
So why were they part of the Air Line Pilots Association? After all, what they or any of the other charter operators do obviously does not affect our bottom line, correct? Should we also exclude FedEx or other cargo operators? They are not passenger carriers, so their pay and work rules improvements should not even apply to our negotiations?
Click to expand...

It's not about "excluding" anyone, it's simply about like-kind comparisons. You shouldn't compare charter operations to scheduled airline ops. Different industries. Doesn't mean that ALPA shouldn't represent them, but you don't compare different industries to each other.

It seems to me you don't want to improve the piloting profession in general... Just the piloting profession as it applies to the airline segment of the industry.
Click to expand...

No, I want to improve the plight of all professional air line pilots, but you simply can't compare disparate industries. We should be working hard to improve the pay and work rules of the charter companies also, but we aren't instantly going to bring their conditions up to the standards of the scheduled carriers. Champion is in a different industry than NWA, but Skybus is in the same industry. Compare apples to apples.
 
SoCalAprch said:
And PCL and Velo my #1 priority in life is my families happiness and well being. If I think I can make my family happier then I will do it
Click to expand...

I've heard many SCABs make the same argument to justify their decision to stab their brothers in the back. You have to draw a line in the sand that you will not cross. Going to work for Skybus is over that line.
 
FlyChicaga said:
So if someone does not know something is wrong and hurtful to our profession, that means it is not wrong and hurtful to our profession?

That is like someone saying that they did not know the speed limit in the school zone was 20 MPH, so they should not get a ticket after doing 50 MPH in that area. That argument does not hold water, and neither does the comparisons between Gulfstream and SkyBus. Each is harmful to our profession, regardless of whether someone did or did not do their homework before going to work for those companies.
Click to expand...

Of course it's harmful, but it's a matter of intent. In keeping with your analogy, most cops will issue warnings rather than tickets if they believe the speeder truly didn't know the speed limit. There's a difference between willful intent and ignorance.
 
PCL_128 said:
I've heard many SCABs make the same argument to justify their decision to stab their brothers in the back. You have to draw a line in the sand that you will not cross. Going to work for Skybus is over that line.
Click to expand...


I disagree, I think you throw around the term scab around very loosely. Skybus was a start up airline and none of those guys crossed any picket lines. No one stabbed anyone in the back and most took the jobs because they thought it would be best for them. What do you think a Gulfstream pilot is?
 
I'm sorry that wasn't "coherent". How is skybus unlike NWA and the rest of the carriers...(airtran, ATA, Champion, Suncountry, Southwest)????
 
If Skybus pilots are SCABs what does that make Gulfstream guys? Once a scab always a scab right PCL? Hell you are mad that they are working for lower than industry standards, at least they aren't paying to work.
 
SoCalAprch said:
I disagree, I think you throw around the term scab around very loosely.
Click to expand...

:banghead: I didn't call the Skybus pilots scabs, I was simply telling you that actual SCABs who did cross picket lines use the same excuse you stated in your post. Again, you must draw a line. Breaking a strike isn't the only thing that's over the line. Going to work for a company like Skybus is over the line also, even though it isn't scabbing.

What do you think a Gulfstream pilot is?
Click to expand...

A union member.
 
PCL_128 said:
It's not about "excluding" anyone, it's simply about like-kind comparisons. You shouldn't compare charter operations to scheduled airline ops. Different industries. Doesn't mean that ALPA shouldn't represent them, but you don't compare different industries to each other.
Click to expand...

These are not different industries. Both Champion Air and any scheduled 121 carrier fly the same equipment between Point A and Point B. This is the aviation industry... Pilots are Pilots. We need to be working to improve all aspects of the aviation industry, not our own cozy little corner.

I know if I was working for Champion Air and was reading these comments, I would not have much faith in ALPA. It would appear there is a huge conflict of interest. Obviously I wouldn't want to be the part of a union that feels we are unworthy of pay and work rule improvements in line with those of the scheduled airlines because we fly "as needed."

Luckily the MEC at my company worked in conjunction with management to make our supplemental 121 operation top-notch in terms of pay and work rules. Obviously our own MEC felt that our supplemental operation was not a "step below" the scheduled service, but in fact just the opposite.

PCL_128 said:
No, I want to improve the plight of all professional air line pilots, but you simply can't compare disparate industries.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Airline pilots. Not pilots. From looking at most of the rest of the industry, I wouldn't exactly use the word "plight." I'd like to see improvements, but you can't say we are under excessive hardship when you see the pay and work rules for most other companies outside the legacies and most LCCs.
 
FlyChicaga, you obviously aren't reading my posts. I just said that I want to improve conditions for all pilots. But this is a matter of reasonability. You simply aren't going to be able to make the huge jump from Champion wages to NWA wages. Can't happen. The Champion MEC Chairman would tell you the same thing. I know him well, and I can assure you that he sees no conflict of interest within ALPA. He is one of ALPA's biggest supporters. I'm very sad to see ALPA lose such a great volunteer.

That's not to say that you can't improve charter airline wages over time, but expecting them to make the huge jump to legacy wages is just not realistic.
 
PCL_128 said:
:banghead: I didn't call the Skybus pilots scabs, I was simply telling you that actual SCABs who did cross picket lines use the same excuse you stated in your post. Again, you must draw a line. Breaking a strike isn't the only thing that's over the line. Going to work for a company like Skybus is over the line also, even though it isn't scabbing.



A union member.
Click to expand...

Using that excuse to cross a picket line is wrong and completely different than going to work for a start up airline that you think will give you a better QOL. Again Im not saying that I think Skybus is right but I don't think we should write every skybus pilot off as a SCAB like you and Velo think we should.

And yes, you're right, Gulfstream guys are union and are helping this industry tremendously. :sarcasm:
 
SoCal! you are the man...... Thats right folks, reps that are former scabs on this forum! Raise your hand if you paid for work only to become a union rep! I rest my case.Worse than go jet pilots inside the union?????What will we ever do. So many talking smack about guys who get paid, yet, guys talking the talk who have paid for jobs?!?!!??!?!???WOW, better rescale those jumpseat denile lists....
 
SoCalAprch said:
Again Im not saying that I think Skybus is right but I don't think we should write every skybus pilot off as a SCAB like you and Velo think we should.
Click to expand...

I'll give you a grand if you can show me where I ever said a Skybus pilot was a scab. Didn't happen, my friend. To the best of my recollection, Velo hasn't either.
 
CE525BGuy said:
SoCal! you are the man...... Thats right folks, reps that are former scabs on this forum! Raise your hand if you paid for work only to become a union rep! I rest my case.Worse than go jet pilots inside the union?????What will we ever do. So many talking smack about guys who get paid, yet, guys talking the talk who have paid for jobs?!?!!??!?!???WOW, better rescale those jumpseat denile lists....
Click to expand...

It's a valiant effort, but sorry, you're not going to provoke me into a fight. Call me whatever you like, but my ALPA pin is platinum. I've walked the walk, my friend.
 
Im not trying to provoke anyone into a fight...just trying to put everyone back where they belong...... Don't cry union when you payed for a job flying. Never done so myself and never had a friend do so...that is beyound the picket line where I come from....
 
PCL_128 said:
I'll give you a grand if you can show me where I ever said a Skybus pilot was a scab. Didn't happen, my friend. To the best of my recollection, Velo hasn't either.
Click to expand...

Ahem.

September 27th, 2007
PCL_128 said:
That's why I use that term. For some reason, many people falsely believe that the only definition of SCAB is "someone who crossed a picket line." Far be it for someone to pick up a friggin' dictionary. :rolleyes: But, to make it easier for our friends who don't know how to use a dictionary, I use the term "pseudo-SCAB." As far as I'm concerned, they're no different than SCABs, but I'll use the different term to appease the ignorant. [emphasis added]
Click to expand...

September 27th, 2007
Velocipede said:
As long as they voluntarily work at places that undercut Union pilots, they deserve virturally the same scorn as the ultimate undercutters...SCABS.
Click to expand...

September 26th, 2007
PCL_128 said:
From the Merriam-Webster definition of "scab:" (with applicable sections in bold)

3 a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

Seems that it fits the dictionary definition of the term, whether the Skybus #####s want to admit it or not. Besides, no one here is calling them actual "scabs." Velo calls them proto-scabs, and I call them pseudo-scabs. They're basically just as bad as SCABs, but we use a different term to differentiate between them. What they're doing is hardly better than what a "true" SCAB does, though.
Click to expand...

I may not be reading for comprehension though.
 
PCL_128 said:
I'll give you a grand if you can show me where I ever said a Skybus pilot was a scab. Didn't happen, my friend. To the best of my recollection, Velo hasn't either.
Click to expand...

Very well, even though barely scraping by at my union led regional airline, I could use the cash. You just make it sound like all these Skybus guys purposely did this just to screw the industry. I don't think that is true. Most pilots don't base their whole lives around bettering ALPA. Some people have different priorities and its just a fact of life. There is nothing wrong with doing something that you think is better for you and your loved ones. Crossing a picket line is completely different. If its more important for someone to be based at home than how much money they make and that in turn improves their QOL then so be it. How can I tell someone they are wrong if they tell me that they and their families are happier at Skybus or Virgin than somewhere that is led by ALPA.
 
Gee, glad I have a gold Hilton Honors card, which gets me a better hotel than any alpa carrier.....plus much more!!!:nana2:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top