🦈💜
Well-Known Member
This is the exact example of what I am not and refuse to be.
Captain Positions Offered to New Hires
- Thread starter Ian_J
- Start date
This is the exact example of what I am not and refuse to be.
bLizZuE
Calling for engine starts en français
In 2008 at a Colgan interview I was asked about my worst day in aviation. I told a story about continued VFR into IFR while I had students on the airplane. I had to get an IFR clearance and shoot an approach and it freaked me out. I learned it wasn’t a good story to tell. I never told that story again, but I never lied about it either. (HR at Colgan told me I lacked the self confidence to be an airline Captain.)
You don’t have to be an open book in an interview. You just have to tell the right stories.
You don’t have to be an open book in an interview. You just have to tell the right stories.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Yes, and what exactly does that mean to you? Do you really want to dive down the accreditation rabbit hole with me? Do you actually understand what it means and what it doesn't, the politics behind it, and the process controls that need to be demonstrated?
It has little to do with the value of the education, and a lot to do with . . . checking boxes.
I have heard lots of stories from people who I consider close personal friends, as well as FOs I've flown with, CAs I've chatted with, and so on. I have lots of datapoints on the issue. See also:
I welcome disagreement and dissent. It's literally a part of my decisionmaking process and how I approach the world. However, I'm not particularly interested in being morally judged and called out for my opinions or mocked for my moral and ethical choices, no matter how 'crazy' they are to the people in question.
The alternative, which I tend to avoid, is engaging in comparative morality, which is the most pointless (and harmful) of all the battles that humanity fights. And yet here I am.
I see this a lot, and I generally let it go. But in this case, especially as we're talking about the tech industry in a specific period of time, I'm just going to ask:
Why do you say that?
It means this: You know those "minority" candidates that cisgender heterosexual white males with crew cuts and family connections are always railing against on various fora? You know how they get hired?
They are immensely qualified.
I see posts all the time in the various female aviator groups I'm in that go something like this:
... and so on.
You very likely have literally no idea how hard many of those women (and, from the black people I know, pretty much every minority) work in the massive uphill battle that is our current social structure. I'm not even including myself in this. Not by a long shot. When I see a woman get hired at a legacy, she is almost always significantly more qualified than I.
And yet Jack L. Britches III who came to aviation "because I heard it paid well for not a lot of work" can roll in with a nice suit, drop a few zingers, and slide right in.
Don't be offended if I drop out of this discussion. It's on a trajectory to become a dogpile and I have much more interesting things to do with my time than roll around in the mud.
T/O w/FSII
Well-Known Member
I mean, I just watched a 24yr old girl go from skydiving to a regional to a Delta 330 FO in 1 years time. No college. 1 year. That’s the reality.
Currently if you can breath and get through an interview you got the job.
Not sure if those examples you made up are accurate anymore.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
@Acrofox
I get on an intellectual level your resistance against doing the interview prep pony show, though I don’t on a personal level get it I can see where you’re coming from. If that makes any sense at all. Is there any possibility of connecting with someone who has made it through the hiring process at a major, and is more acquainted with the world from your perspective who could give you a reality check while coming from an angle that sort of gets you? It’s clear that not much coming from this crowd is going to help you because for the most part our frames of reference are too different, but I like to think most (all?) of us want to see you succeed.
I get on an intellectual level your resistance against doing the interview prep pony show, though I don’t on a personal level get it I can see where you’re coming from. If that makes any sense at all. Is there any possibility of connecting with someone who has made it through the hiring process at a major, and is more acquainted with the world from your perspective who could give you a reality check while coming from an angle that sort of gets you? It’s clear that not much coming from this crowd is going to help you because for the most part our frames of reference are too different, but I like to think most (all?) of us want to see you succeed.
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Well-Known Member
Frankly, that's a problem with their hiring process, not with you. I respect you for telling that story at your interview, and if I was the interviewer, I would give you marks for integrity and honesty. It indicates an attitude that's open to a just, reporting culture, to finding and addressing systemic or individual problems and fixing them.
The last thing I want in an airline captain—or an FO—is unjustified self-confidence, because that's how we get turn 150 people and 120,000lbs of metal into a smoking hole.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
I saw something on the other site (might be bs) that something like 95% of United new hires have the college degree. It’s definitely not required, but still desired for some reason.
Sometimes you just have to play the game. Cooperate and graduate. Being a martyr isn’t doing you any favors.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but every new hire class photo posted on social media proves that to be a cop out. Usually from people who haven’t asserted themselves.
I'm just more curious what you consider a legit university versus a "diploma mill." Like specific examples? It seems like its discrediting a lot of work people have done to as you put it merely "check a box" while you have said in the past that you have no interest in doing it.
I'm sorry but this is just wrong.
Offended? No, but I think it's pretty lame to walk in, throw a bunch of grenades, then leave.
I threw in an app at UPS several years ago as soon as I met the minimum qualifications on the site (degree preferred). I think the rejection email came before I even hit the submit button. Exaggerating, but I believe it was actually within 10 minutes.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
You have to earn the right to complain. If you haven’t at least attempted to complete the steps that are widely known to aid in your success, you shoulder a fair amount of the blame. If you’ve sucked it up and did the unpleasant things that we all know will assist you down the path of success and it still doesn’t work, well that’s a raw deal and complain away.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
I would guess, and its only a guess, that the class photos represent a similar percentage to the demographics that apply. If you didnt get hired, I would look within and not blame it on race or gender.
bLizZuE
Calling for engine starts en français
A long time ago I looked up the interview gouge and it included questions like “look at this electrical circuit and describe the resistance.” And I knew I was too stupid to work there.
I'm so glad interviews have moved away from that crap, which has helped me fly a plane exactly zero times. All of them I've been in recently seem to have struck a pretty decent balance of "what work did you put in to get here, here's a scenario where we try to gauge if you're a person with empathy and leadership or not, and what setbacks have you faced and what did you learn/how did you overcome them?"
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I would agree, my statement was more that if a straight white guy says they’re at a disadvantage, they’re full of it.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
It's not about accreditation, it's about academic rigor.
What has that "work" done to legitimately make the student a better person, or to benefit humanity? Modern coursework that lacks the aforementioned rigor is strictly knowledge banking, and submitting to it is merely demonstrating compliance. And the students aren't doing it to learn, they're doing it to check a box. The institutions don't care about the knowledge imparted—they, too, are checking boxes.
Yes, I have a problem with that. It's absolute madness, and if you can't see that take a step back and look at it from a wider angle.
Actual FO of mine. Long flight deck discussion. Name changed.
I didn't chuck grenades, I allowed myself to express a bit of bitterness in a moment of weakness, and I've been responding since.
It won't happen again.
[Last response. (I hope)]
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
You have been getting interviews at AS and WN. I wonder if you need to have someone look at your app for UA and DL. There could be a gotcha in your app that it preventing it from actually being seen. I know this because I have gone over apps with people and I have seen all but one get an interview not long after. I wouldn't pay $200+ for some hack to look at your app and tell you basic info (that was my experience). Get someone you trust to give it a hard look and to even help with verbiage about your checkride failures and such.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Eh, I helped a person get on at my shop without a degree. It was right after they dropped the requirement. I honestly don't think it is a huge deal anymore.
I hope not. From an outsiders view of this conversation what I see is people interested in your success. If your goal is to be at an airline up the rung from your current one, these folks seem interested in helping. That says a lot about you and about them. I’d be willing to help as well if you’d take the help.