Briefing approaches?

[Seggy]

..."oh that could be helpful" type stuff.

A lot of folks don't talk or think about their fuel situation on a go around. Not saying you need to talk about it on a great VMC day, but at least make a mental note "if we go around my fuel situation will be *fill in the blank*"

 

[MikeD]

Right, my question was more about harvesting some nuggets of wisdom that people have uncovered on making it simple/efficient/useful..."oh that could be helpful" type stuff.

Exactly. And thats a good thing to solicit techniques. You could use one, another, or a combination of them. Was just throwing my 2 cents out there because inevitably, in a thread involving pilots and their techniques, arguments will always start over "my technique is better and here's why yours isn't",

There are techniques and there are procedures. There are no techcedures.

 

[MikeD]

A lot of folks don't talk or think about their fuel situation on a go around. Not saying you need to talk about it on a great VMC day, but at least make a mental note "if we go around my fuel situation will be *fill in the blank*"

Agree. The time you have to either begin divert, or do something else due to fuel becoming an issue, shoudnt be a surprise to you at the moment it occurs.

 

[dasleben]

Plate(s), speeds, brakes, transition level, taxi plan. Doesn't take more than a minute or so. Most guys tend to keep it simple, anyway.

 

[etflies]

I expect no threats. Ever. I don't fly in iran and syria.

Seriously? I've yet to see something remotely dangerous on an ifr plate.

It can be anything that could affect the safety of the approach/landing. Following a bigger airplane (in the Bro that's pretty well a standing order), weather, VFR/weekend warrior types, a short or contaminated runway, complex taxi to the gate, complacency because this is the third....or is it the fourth SAN turn you've done today? Or just that 1-2 coffee breakfast and taco lunch combo coming down the pipe at your O-ring.

 

[wheelsup]

If its visual, then say its visual and anything that is important that the other may not know. Guys that do a full plate brief when it's 10/CLR piss me off. It's not an ILS, you don't have minimums, you don't follow the missed approach and there is no reasonable expectation that the Wx will go down. Don't talk just to talk. It takes away from what is important and the other guy won't be paying attention anyway. Don't make life harder than what it has to be. Only talk when you have something important to say. Review all applicable notams and only brief those that will be affecting your arrival or landing.

I brought this up to a sim instructor in recurrent. The reasoning he gave for giving a "full plate" brief to a visual approach was if you happened to go around and lose comms, I guess he thinks doing the published ILS missed to that runway is appropriate. I dunno sometimes I wonder if these guys ever get out on the line at all. I was thinking "If I go around after cleared for a visual approach, and happen to lose all 3 comm radios at that time (or the tower loses their primary and backup and backup to backup) then I would think the best course of action is to fly a downwind and wait for a light gun signal rather than just go trodding off into the unknown". Just me though.

 

[Ian_J]

Why you waste your time with that POS, I have no idea. And Army guys seem to love it. I hate it, especially when its so apt to screw me and I have to reset it, and the CPI is counter-intuitive.

Raw data works just fine for me. Interesting that for an aircraft where everything else is high quality, they install that piece of garbage.

The only thing I use the Nav bar function of the CIS for is to remind me Im in crossfeed.

My bad - words mean things. By CIS I mean the "Electronic Navigation Display System," which includes the two Mode Select and the one CIS mode select panels. While the CIS mode select panel is certainly optional, the two mode select panels MUST be set correctly. So when I say "CIS," that's what I mean.

As for the other points, IMO the NAV and HDG modes are very useful. I never have a problem with them. I never use the ALT mode (except when it is coupled with the ILS) because it is stupid. When on an ILS, I don't look at the CPI.

 

[BobDDuck]

If it's a nice day I just brief the runway loaded in to the FMS, note that we'll have an ILS (VOR, VNAV whatever) backup on the display, the speed and flap setting, the length of the runway, the direction of the turn off (and if we have to hold short of anything) and the direction we will turn in the event of a missed. If there is terrain, wind (always an issue out here) or fuel considerations I'll add those in as well. Takes about 30 seconds.

If it's IMC I'll add in the identifier on the nav setup (or check the RNP if it's a RNAV approach), double check the minimums are set correctly, mention a VDP/PDP and MAP and the initial direction of the go around turn.

 

[MikeD]

My bad - words mean things. By CIS I mean the "Electronic Navigation Display System," which includes the two Mode Select and the one CIS mode select panels. While the CIS mode select panel is certainly optional, the two mode select panels MUST be set correctly. So when I say "CIS," that's what I mean.

As for the other points, IMO the NAV and HDG modes are very useful. I never have a problem with them. I never use the ALT mode (except when it is coupled with the ILS) because it is stupid. When on an ILS, I don't look at the CPI.

No, Im was with you. By CIS, I was only referring to the CIS portion itself and it's associated mode selects [NAV/HDG/ALT].

A good approach to fly for a checkride is any that says "VOR or TACAN Rwy XX", since if you screw up and forget to select the appropriate mode select [VOR vs TAC], you're still fine.

Example:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1309/00430VT11L.PDF

 

[Ian_J]

No, Im was with you. By CIS, I was only referring to the CIS portion itself and it's associated mode selects [NAV/HDG/ALT].

A good approach to fly for a checkride is any that says "VOR or TACAN Rwy XX", since if you screw up and forget to select the appropriate mode select [VOR vs TAC], you're still fine.

Example:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1309/00430VT11L.PDF

No TACAN for us!

 

[Seggy]

If it's IMC I'll add in the identifier on the nav setup (or check the RNP if it's a RNAV approach), double check the minimums are set correctly, mention a VDP/PDP and MAP and the initial direction of the go around turn.

I have a feeling it's going to be a while (like years) until you do an IMC approach on the line.....not a bad thing obviously, just saying.....





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[BobDDuck]

I have a feeling it's going to be a while (like years) until you do an IMC approach on the line.....not a bad thing obviously, just saying.....

That's what everybody said, but during OE I did two approaches (one of them a VOR no less) to within 100 feet of mins.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I don't make it anything complex. Quick review top to bottom of freq section, plan view for headings/alts/nav freqs, profile view for alts and stepdowns, mins for category I'll be doing, ensure I have the WX for it, MSA/ESA check, look at airport diagram of where/how I'll be approaching the field and how I'll circle if I'll be doing so. And initial part of missed or climbout. Top to bottom on the plate.

I'm a student of the belief that Jepp did a great job rewriting the approach plate in a format where following the pate from top to bottom is an effective approach briefing. Such a good job, in fact, that NACO stole it right away.

The only modification I make to the top-to-bottom methodology is to look at the plan view first. That's my chance to get the 20,000' view of the approach and my current position with respect to it. That gives me a context for the approach and how I will be getting there that helps in doing such things as what transitions to expect, what IAF to select (I never load vectors to final on a GPS or GPS-monitored approach - all you need is one ATC instruction to proceed direct to an intermediate fix that isn't displayed to convince you of that one), helps me immensely with the memorization of courses and distances and may even lead me to select a different approach altogether (especially to non-towered fields).

PS. I don't need a mnemonic or acronym to remember that getting the weather is important. My SOP is to get the weather as far out as I can just so I can anticipate which approach I will be using.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

We do "NATS+threat"

Notams
Approach brief (read the plate)
Taxi brief (anticipated turn off, runway crossings, and hot spots)
Terrain
Transition Level
STAR, special pages

Then identify the greatest known threats and their mitigation

 

[RRPower]

I brought this up to a sim instructor in recurrent. The reasoning he gave for giving a "full plate" brief to a visual approach was if you happened to go around and lose comms, I guess he thinks doing the published ILS missed to that runway is appropriate. I dunno sometimes I wonder if these guys ever get out on the line at all. I was thinking "If I go around after cleared for a visual approach, and happen to lose all 3 comm radios at that time (or the tower loses their primary and backup and backup to backup) then I would think the best course of action is to fly a downwind and wait for a light gun signal rather than just go trodding off into the unknown". Just me though.

And he would need to review the lost comms procedure. First off...practically if we are bouncing into an airport like ATL, CLT, ORD and go missed and lose BOTH comms, then we enter a traffic pattern, squawk the appropriate squawk and use acars. Atc can relay atc clearances through your dispatcher. If THAT failed, then I am supposed to continue VMC into the airport. It is stupid to brief an approach we are not cleared for and will not be doing...always, always, always. Luckily at ZW, no one has ever done it, but if they do, I will tune them out. The lost comms procedures are really written for GA and are not practical for a 121 operation flying into an airport that does 90+ rate an hr. they really need to be rewritten or airport specific.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I have the PM brief the approach himself and set up all the radios, courses, and sequences. Then, when (s)he's done, I hand over the controls (don't forget to brief the state of the A/C [A/P settings, hdg, alt, new instructions etc.] before handing over and re-accepting). After that I call present position and general approach entry (vectors/PT). Then I review and brief with W-SHAFTM.

W eather: Confirm approach is legal, and hazards, winds, etc.
S peeds and Shouts: Ref and any approach climb requirements. Call outs I'd like along the way (2m FAF, 1M FAF, FAF, MDA, MAP)
H eading: final approach, missed initial
A ltitudes: top of hill (intercept or FAF), bottom of hill (DA or MDA), missed altitude.
F reqs and flaps: (confirm all NAVs and COMs are set and tested) (confirm flaps straight in or circle)
T ime: (FAF to MAP) (and VS for a constant descent)
M: issed (default plan to go missed, and if the approach goes well enough, you might be able to land out of it).

Don't forget to brief generally (style issues, hot buttons, callouts, etc,) before the flight and during enroute. If captain, let your FO know what you expect and desire. If FO, inquire of your captain. It's been my experience that most problems happen when communication breaks down and the two pilots don't know each other's expectations.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Tune the ADF to your mins.

Aside from that, I've never seen a missed approach instruction that didn't start with "Climb"

 

[wheelsup]

And he would need to review the lost comms procedure. First off...practically if we are bouncing into an airport like ATL, CLT, ORD and go missed and lose BOTH comms, then we enter a traffic pattern, squawk the appropriate squawk and use acars. Atc can relay atc clearances through your dispatcher. If THAT failed, then I am supposed to continue VMC into the airport. It is stupid to brief an approach we are not cleared for and will not be doing...always, always, always. Luckily at ZW, no one has ever done it, but if they do, I will tune them out. The lost comms procedures are really written for GA and are not practical for a 121 operation flying into an airport that does 90+ rate an hr. they really need to be rewritten or airport specific.

No one has ever done it...it was an AWAC sim instructor haha

Briefing the ILS/missed on a visual happens all the time, also my favorite of setting the missed approach altitude for go-arounds. In DCA going north or south it's 99% a turn to the west @ 3k, R/W 35 in PHL straight out up to 3k, etc. I agree with you, definitely need airport specific lost comms and also a "typical go-around" procedure based on runways would be nice as well for VMC ops.

When was the last time you went to ATL or ORD? I can probably count on one hand

 

[X-Forces]

As previously briefed.............

 

[Deleted member 27505]

(I never load vectors to final on a GPS or GPS-monitored approach - all you need is one ATC instruction to proceed direct to an intermediate fix that isn't displayed to convince you of that one).

No kidding. I've never understood why VTF drops all the outer fixes (except maybe on older FMSs.) In the era of moving maps, why not keep all that additional situational awareness available? Certainly programmers are smart enough to keep the other fixes visible while ignoring them for sequencing when one selects the VTF button.
Another peave... WTF isn't the procedure for activation the missed standardized? Some boxes automatically sequence, some make you do it manually. Seems to me this is one of those details to which the FAA might pay some attention. They certainly pay enough attention to a whole lot of other details of no particular significance.