Becoming an Airline Pilot without a College Degree
- Thread starter gliderpilot3
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nibake
Powder hound
Today.
nibake
Powder hound
I'm afraid you are the one with the anti intelectual [sic] line of thinking, as I will prove below.
Let me remind you of the sequence of events.
Initially, the suggestion was made that college educated people were less likely to vote for Trump.
Then @tcco94 asked for evidence.
Next @Screaming_Emu comes out of nowhere with this beauty
Then, interestingly and surprisingly someone offered evidence of a previously challenged point: @jtrain609 linked an article showing that Trump was indeed the winner among those without a college education, proving the previous point, and potentially supporting the idea of colleges being liberal, although I wouldn't build my argument around it.
Then I replied. Instead of presenting evidence, I presented two logical arguments for discussion, and you had this to say:
What facts are you talking about? How is accusing me of being anti-intellectual a counter-argument to what I proposed? Seriously, several others asked questions, made good points, and challenged or supported some of mine. Yet everything from you is an attack with no foundation calling things you don't agree with "conspiracies." It's looking more and more like you are the one here who is allergic to facts.
To me, the whole argument isn't really about voting statistics or party demographics anyway. I can subjectively say that the overwhelming majority of colleges espouse ideas that are far more progressive than those I hold. But I am also more conservative on the spectrum that the general populace. My theory is that you are actually very progressive and since so many colleges are highly progressive, you see them as mainstream, not realizing how progressive you are. A wise person once explained to me that as a law people see themselves as less liberal than they really are. I wish I could elaborate that as well as he did. But I digress. I am objectively arguing that institutions of higher education are more progressive than the general populace. Far more progressive.
Some of the arguments I'm bringing to the table:
1) Colleges get lots of government money. Large government subsidies are a characteristic if liberal spending policies. Therefore colleges have a connection with liberal ideas.
2) Tenure can be used to protect professors who are teaching ideas so progressive that people would seek to remove them from their position.
3) Unions are a distinctively progressive demographics. The last time I ran for office my Democrat opponent had 30% of the allowable campaign warchest filled with union donations from the get-go.
The fact that unions are progressive is so strikingly obvious, @Yakob accepted the premise without even questioning it, even though he was not trying to support my argument (I don't think):
Other questions -
Now I have a question of my own. What bearing does it being 2017 have on facts and conspiracies theories? Because I have no idea where you were going with that.
Let me remind you of the sequence of events.
Initially, the suggestion was made that college educated people were less likely to vote for Trump.
Then @tcco94 asked for evidence.
Next @Screaming_Emu comes out of nowhere with this beauty
All of the sudden someone has become defensive, an I'm not really sure why. Nevertheless, something that is IMHO common knowledge is a "ridiculous conspiracy theory." What a jump! Personally, I wouldn't become defensive even if someone asserted that typically conservative institutions were conservative. Why should someone saying something like "Churches are constantly pushing conservative ideas" put me on the defensive?
Then, interestingly and surprisingly someone offered evidence of a previously challenged point: @jtrain609 linked an article showing that Trump was indeed the winner among those without a college education, proving the previous point, and potentially supporting the idea of colleges being liberal, although I wouldn't build my argument around it.
Then I replied. Instead of presenting evidence, I presented two logical arguments for discussion, and you had this to say:
What facts are you talking about? How is accusing me of being anti-intellectual a counter-argument to what I proposed? Seriously, several others asked questions, made good points, and challenged or supported some of mine. Yet everything from you is an attack with no foundation calling things you don't agree with "conspiracies." It's looking more and more like you are the one here who is allergic to facts.
To me, the whole argument isn't really about voting statistics or party demographics anyway. I can subjectively say that the overwhelming majority of colleges espouse ideas that are far more progressive than those I hold. But I am also more conservative on the spectrum that the general populace. My theory is that you are actually very progressive and since so many colleges are highly progressive, you see them as mainstream, not realizing how progressive you are. A wise person once explained to me that as a law people see themselves as less liberal than they really are. I wish I could elaborate that as well as he did. But I digress. I am objectively arguing that institutions of higher education are more progressive than the general populace. Far more progressive.
Some of the arguments I'm bringing to the table:
1) Colleges get lots of government money. Large government subsidies are a characteristic if liberal spending policies. Therefore colleges have a connection with liberal ideas.
2) Tenure can be used to protect professors who are teaching ideas so progressive that people would seek to remove them from their position.
3) Unions are a distinctively progressive demographics. The last time I ran for office my Democrat opponent had 30% of the allowable campaign warchest filled with union donations from the get-go.
The fact that unions are progressive is so strikingly obvious, @Yakob accepted the premise without even questioning it, even though he was not trying to support my argument (I don't think):
Which brings me to this:
I think you are most equipped to answer the question for us!
Other questions -
Good question. I believe I got the idea from this and other articles - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_tenure
No real evidence of this idea, but if my argument holds that institutes of higher education are indeed more progressive than the general populace, it would only make sense.
See above. It's actually a pretty solid argument. The fact that you use loaded language like "rabid conservatives" makes me think you have an axe to grind. Am I wrong?
If you following the progression of the thread you will notice that it wasn't about complaining about liberal indoctrination.
Now I have a question of my own. What bearing does it being 2017 have on facts and conspiracies theories? Because I have no idea where you were going with that.
nibake
Powder hound
If anyone is bored, here is an article specifically about teacher's unions
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=L1300
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=L1300
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I'm only going to argue one point; that it's not exposure to liberal ideas that cause those with a college education to become more liberal. Instead it's an exposure to ideas that are not their own that force undergrads to reevaluate their positions
With that, undergrad doesn't make you a leftist, simply that it moves people to the left. There are certainly those that review their positions and remain conservative, and then these people seem to become lawyers.
I, on the other hand, joined the National Lawyers Guild in law school. That isn't to say that the federalist society has nothing to offer. Quite the opposite, one of the best professors I took courses with in law school was the faculty advisor to the federalist society, I simply think that liberal ideology has better solutions to MOST problems.
With that, undergrad doesn't make you a leftist, simply that it moves people to the left. There are certainly those that review their positions and remain conservative, and then these people seem to become lawyers.
I, on the other hand, joined the National Lawyers Guild in law school. That isn't to say that the federalist society has nothing to offer. Quite the opposite, one of the best professors I took courses with in law school was the faculty advisor to the federalist society, I simply think that liberal ideology has better solutions to MOST problems.
Bear
Well-Known Member
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Fake News! Quit tryna make me think!
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Right? I think the larger issue here is exactly what (I think) you're point out; that nuance is either unknowable or weak.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
So, why do you think it is that educated people tend to be more liberal?
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Dude. I been trying to make a nuanced argument over on another site, and it flies WAY, WAY over a few heads. There’s no room for nuance when we live in a loud/obnoxious world where facts mean literally nothing, and the loudest voice is the correct voice. Maddening.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
I think we need more cowbell.
milleR
Well-Known Member
What are you studying for a degree in? At which University?
JDean3204
Well-Known Member
Well when you charge 150k+ a head for the aero sci degree, I'm guessing you can afford to revamp the college...
tcco94
Future GTA VI Pilot
If you can walk from that school under $200k with aero sci degree it'd be a miracle. I'd love to hear how much an average student pays. When I got accepted they gave me $10k of financial aid. So I was stuck with a $44k bill year 1, I believe. The $10k financial aid they offered was just govt loans too.
The school was awesome though when I visited. They were just building their flight ops so I'm curious to see it now. Hope to get an overnight there sometime to check it out and see all the resources they had.
JDean3204
Well-Known Member
Wow that is just rediculously steep. If anyone gets 200k into debt for this career I just feel sorry for them.
I will say the DAB campus was extremely nice when I visited, after I heard vets had to pay out of pocket for the flight training portion of the degree I said no very quickly! I just couldn't justify that kind of debt knowing what the ROI was during the beginning stages of the career. Looking back at my paychecks in the last three years I'm sure glad I made that decision. Even the online Pro Aero degree is stupid expensive now, seems like they get enough people in the door to justify the prices though..
tcco94
Future GTA VI Pilot
Yeah, looks like a fantastic school. DAB would be awesome. The was easy to say no when I got the financial aid in the mail.
I looked today and it says tuition is $47k/year and then you need to add $40-60k for flight training. So well over $200k still.
nibake
Powder hound
I'm not sure that educated people are more liberal. The point was made that people with a college education were less likely to vote for Trump. I can only speculate as to why that is. Maybe they didn't want a president who knew less about the constitution then them?
The argument I am trying to make is that not only do colleges tend to espouse progressive ideas, but also that this is common knowledge.
I do think that a liberal arts education will certainly encourage a person to challenge and rethink some of his/her beliefs. Does that mean people are going to come out more liberal on the other end? I don't know. Maybe it will have the opposite effect. So often people who blindly follow a certain ideology fall into self-parody and make themselves look like fools. A big factor contributing to Trump's election, IMO, is how out of control the media has become with little regard for honest, fair, journalism. Sometimes these things backfire. I know the last time I had a union looking at for my interests (figuratively holding a gun to my head) I went from viewing unions in a negative light to passionately despising them. If students can see through the dis-ingenuity of a radical professor, it could backfire. I suppose this is more likely if a student comes into the environment already having good critical thinking skills.
TL;DR - Yes, I think colleges are liberal. IDK how college educated people are really affected by this.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
What did you study in undergrad?