ATP Single Engine Add On?

Raskolnikov

Well-Known Member
Hello,

I have a potential new student who did his training with the USAF. He has an ATP multi-engine, but doesn’t have a single engine license. He just bought into a partnership on a Grumman Tiger so needs a single engine license.

Looking over 61.165 (e) it looks like he just needs to be proficient in the Tiger and I can sign him off. Am I missing something? If he just wants to fly for fun is there a way to do this without an ATP add-on. Say a commercial add-on, or private privileges? If that makes any sense.

So have any of you had student in this position?

-Josh
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
I have zero experience with students like this, i don't think many do.
But, no you can not sign him off once he is proficient.
He will need to become a single engine pilot, on some level.
I too would suggest that he does the ATP ride for his Single, I also second that it is not an add-on, it is it's own check ride.
"61.63 Additional aircraft ratings (other than on an airline transport pilot certificate)."
 

Raskolnikov

Well-Known Member
I have zero experience with students like this, i don't think many do.
But, no you can not sign him off once he is proficient.
He will need to become a single engine pilot, on some level.
I too would suggest that he does the ATP ride for his Single, I also second that it is not an add-on, it is it's own check ride.
"61.63 Additional aircraft ratings (other than on an airline transport pilot certificate)."
By "sign him off" I meant sign his 8710 for the ATP single-engine add-on with a DPE. I did not mean to imply it would be the same as an endorsement like for complex/high performance. :)

I'm thinking based on 61.165 (e) he just has to be proficient in the Tiger before I sign his 8710. But this is a pretty unusual situation, so I'm not at all certain. Isn't an add-on its own checkride? If you add single engine privileges to a comm ME it's an add-on checkride isn't it?
 

Blip16

Well-Known Member
he doesn't have any ASEL time? i know someone who did a commercial for a guy who came from the air force. he had ATP MEL, but only Private ASEL, so he just got him proficient and then sent him for the Comm ASEL ride.

if the guy doesn't have any ASEL license already, then just train to proficiency and let him go for the ride. you won't have to sign anything for him, other than a solo endorsement giving him the PIC priveledges to fly to the checkride
 

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member
I have done one pilot like this; you are correct, train to proficiency only, assuming he meets the requirements of 61.165 (I can not see why he would not if he already has an ATP).
This situation is not uncommon for military pilots. The one I trained wanted to get his CFI, so we did his ATP SEL instead of a CSEL.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
By "sign him off" I meant sign his 8710 for the ATP single-engine add-on with a DPE. I did not mean to imply it would be the same as an endorsement like for complex/high performance. :)

I'm thinking based on 61.165 (e) he just has to be proficient in the Tiger before I sign his 8710. But this is a pretty unusual situation, so I'm not at all certain. Isn't an add-on its own checkride? If you add single engine privileges to a comm ME it's an add-on checkride isn't it?
ATP can't have an addon and you don't reccomend them for the checkride. It should be much simpler to do the ATP ( instrument) than learning eights on pylons, etc.
 

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member
The pilot *should* be able to add the SEL at the private level, if he so chooses. Any ATP implicitly has a Commercial and Private, since the ATP is a higher level certificate.
What's the point? He can exercise all the P/CSEL privileges with an ATP SEL.
This whole issue is starting to really PO me. I just had another pilot call me saying a few flight schools he talked to told him he had to get a private SEL before he could get a commercial SEL (he currently holds a commercial/instrument RW, CMEL). If you don't know the answer to a question, look it up. A pilot does not need to get a private MEL before getting a commercial MEL, so why would the opposite be true? (Some of these schools advertise for the quick commercial MEL add-on, so they know the rules).
 

Raskolnikov

Well-Known Member
For an ATP ride, you don't need a CFI endorsement saying you are ready for the ride.
If he fails, then he will need a CFI endorsement.
Ah, okay, that makes sense. 61.165 (e) doesn't say he must have a CFI endorsement saying he's ready for the practical test like with other ratings. In fact, I don't see a reference saying he needs a CFI at all unless he's adding a type rating as well. So does that mean he does not technically need me? Could he fly with his ownership partner then fill out his own 8710 when he's ready? If I give him a solo endorsement so he can practice on his own, would it basically be the same endorsement as for a student pilot?

Off now to find an ATP PTS for what he can expect under 61.157(e)(iv) In-flight maneuvers...
 

Douglas

Old School KSUX
Normally ATP candidates do not need the CFI, but they normally do need to rent an aircraft and get a CFI to ride along to watch the progress and also fill the role of "safety pilot" when they are under the foggles. This the way my flight schools have done it.

Does he need a solo endorsement? Me and a few flight instructors have thrown this question around, and what we tentatively think is yes, he is not rated for that airplane and can not act PIC/Solo until he has that endorsement.
Sorry, not much help here, just guessing.

I do know he can not do flight training with his non CFI airplane partner.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
Technically, he isn't required by the regs to have instruction. If he needs instruction, that depends on how well he can fly the airplane.
 

braunpilot

What day is it?
I did one of these at an Aero Club in the USAF system and the interesting part is that they can get their instrument without performing any instrument approaches. If you look in the PTS it only talks about multiengine approaches, not single. I signed him off for the ATP but I cannot remember if that was because he went outside of his checkride diferment, or because of the instrument. I had my CFII at the time. I know the reg talks about it being a self endorsement for the checkride I just can't remember why I signed him off.
 

Blip16

Well-Known Member
Technically, he isn't required by the regs to have instruction. If he needs instruction, that depends on how well he can fly the airplane.
but if he isn't rated for ASEL land at all, not even Private, then he would need some instruction to get the endorsement to act as PIC?
 
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