Army Civilian WOFT

[Ian_J]

The semi annual requirements for FAQ 1 (line aviator) are 70 hours semi-annually but that can be prorated based on leave or aircraft unavailability.

I know we are having problems hitting that goal even with the short manning. Garrison units aren't getting the money to fix their stuff and keep the fleet going. Problem being the ebb and flow of hours so for the low hour guys we have periods of drought where they barely fly and their proficiency drops off a lot. It makes progressing guys from straight out of flight school to PIC to Tracked Warrant take a lot longer.


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I've always wondered how they derived semi-annual minimums. The Chinook is 45 for FAC 1 and 33 for FAC 2. Blackhawks are 48 and 30. So the line pilots in Hawks need an extra 3 hours but the staff guys in Hawks need three hours fewer. They just picking hours out of a hat or what? I assume the big uptick for Apaches has to do with Gunnery stuff.

 

[Lawman]

I've always wondered how they derived semi-annual minimums. The Chinook is 45 for FAC 1 and 33 for FAC 2. Blackhawks are 48 and 30. So the line pilots in Hawks need an extra 3 hours but the staff guys in Hawks need three hours fewer. They just picking hours out of a hat or what? I assume the big uptick for Apaches has to do with Gunnery stuff.

Yeah it's 70 hours with 9.5 in each seat if you are dual seat qualified. And then you have SIM minimums on top of that. The idea behind our mission complexity being a lot more specialized seat to seat vs the left/right in the Hawk and Hook.

I'm in a minority in the Apache community though. I grew up in the old A model/Cobra way of development where you were single seat only in the front and didn't worry about flying in the back until you could master that seat. Now days most guys grow up dual seat from the beginning and their lacking as a gunner is telling. I'm fully supportive of what Boeing keeps recommending but having ignored by the Army which is to stop dual pilot crews and go to a Pilot/WSO model like all the dual seat strike fighters. We keep putting more and more mission complexity into that front seat and when you have guys bouncing back and forth there is no way for them to truly master all the stuff going on up there.

Unfortunately we continue to just ignore the stuff we can't/don't train because anybody can do the Afghanistan fight where we are basically non persistent ISR. DA fight we are gonna have a lot of people suddenly want to know how to make all that stuff work like the radar.


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[Ian_J]

Yeah it's 70 hours with 9.5 in each seat if you are dual seat qualified. And then you have SIM minimums on top of that. The idea behind our mission complexity being a lot more specialized seat to seat vs the left/right in the Hawk and Hook.

I'm in a minority in the Apache community though. I grew up in the old A model/Cobra way of development where you were single seat only in the front and didn't worry about flying in the back until you could master that seat. Now days most guys grow up dual seat from the beginning and their lacking as a gunner is telling. I'm fully supportive of what Boeing keeps recommending but having ignored by the Army which is to stop dual pilot crews and go to a Pilot/WSO model like all the dual seat strike fighters. We keep putting more and more mission complexity into that front seat and when you have guys bouncing back and forth there is no way for them to truly master all the stuff going on up there.

Unfortunately we continue to just ignore the stuff we can't/don't train because anybody can do the Afghanistan fight where we are basically non persistent ISR. DA fight we are gonna have a lot of people suddenly want to know how to make all that stuff work like the radar.


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Yeah, as you know there's zero difference between L/R seats in the Hook or Hawk communities no matter how much Rucker wants PCs in the left seat.

The way you describe how the seats should work with Apaches makes perfect sense.

 

[scoobs]

What is the turnaround time for deployments?

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[Lawman]

What is the turnaround time for deployments?

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As short as 11 months. As long as 1.5-2 years. Kinda depends on what other hooks your Brigade is tied too. Also units going through Echo transition are given some extra time just because of the time it takes to do that.

And now that we have the Kuwait deployment turning into the Iraq combat deployment and rotations to Europe things are getting screwy. And Afghanistan is still here and not going away anytime soon.


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[scoobs]

That's not terrible.

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[scoobs]

Are they getting rid of the unit in Germany?

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[Lawman]

Are they getting rid of the unit in Germany?

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Sort of.

They basically gutted the CAB of its Hawks and Chinooks and 1 Battalion of Apaches which are now in Alaska. Thy kept the Head Quarters element to own the one remaining battalion and absorb the rotational units coming from state side to deploy in support of NATO/poke at the Russians.

They are busier that hell over there now. It was bad before because your boss (Brigade full bird Col) worked for a 3 star with no division to protect you from taskings. Now your boss gets calls from a 3 star and there is nobody but you to do it so people are volunteering to leave that unit to go to any unit and deploy immediately. Dudes are pretty much living in Poland and other interesting places in the field.


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[scoobs]

Poland sounds better than the ME.

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[Lawman]

Poland sounds better than the ME.

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By miles.

But it is important to remember that the Army could take the fun out of a blowjob.


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[scoobs]

I'm sure they're not staying at the Hilton.

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[Nark]

By miles.

But it is important to remember that the Army could take the fun out of a blowjob.


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Quoted again for truth, but also being a Marine in my former life, I'd say the same thing about my beloved Corps.

There's a Navy Submariner joke in there too.

 

[jskibo]

Quoted again for truth, but also being a Marine in my former life, I'd say the same thing about my beloved Corps.

There's a Navy Submariner joke in there too.

MARDET! "Because sheep would be too obvious"

 

[tattooguy21]

Sort of.

They basically gutted the CAB of its Hawks and Chinooks and 1 Battalion of Apaches which are now in Alaska. Thy kept the Head Quarters element to own the one remaining battalion and absorbthe.

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@Lawman makes a lot of sold points on the current situation. The only updates I would say are this, particularly regarding the army attack helicopter (read apache) community:

With the "exodus" of the military's only other true close air support fighter (a10) and the Kiowa gone, the ah64d/e is it. What was once 24 hour ops on every deployment has now actually increased (seriously).

There are new units being stood up faster than they can get pilots (literally). There are more than 5 new attack battalions that have been created in the past year or so, several which don't have AIRCRAFT yet, and none that are fully manned.

Deployments though, for as bad as they are.....It's literally my favorite thing ever. Stateside attack guys (Af/navy/army) only train to do their job. They only get to perform their true functions in one place, and that's war.

The army is constantly losing quality leadership, particularly among the commissioned guys, and the spineless yes men are being pushed up the ranks cause they don't ruffle feathers, speak PC, and cup the balls.

And regarding the guard, they are losing apache aircraft each month. PITT just turned in their aircraft a few months ago, and no matter how much states fight it, they are losing. I have a Utah guard working for me as a contractor instructor at Rucker now and they've started the "conversations" at his unit about new aircraft training/aqc.