Just to add, if you don't know what you're doing with weather radar, if you have the "tilt", or angle the radar is looking at correctly, you will "paint" the city you are going into. It will look like a very bad storm, but it is really just the city you are looking at. The trick is being able to differentiate the city from an actual storm over the city, and it takes, oh, I don't know, charter flying in Florida for a couple of years, along with Caravan flying in the Midwest for a couple of years to get a good idea of what you are doing.Oh ok thanks
I think Eagle did a good thing here.
I think in the end it may hurt them.
The only way it will be worth it is if the next airline in line to face this request from management (and I'm banking on either AWAC or XJet/ASA) tells management to pound sand as well.
You can't Comair everybody.
I think it's easy to second-guess the Eagle MEC here, but you're missing the human factors in the politics that underlie a lot of this.
This and the past MEC chair have always supported 'collaborative discussion' with the company because openly talking always seemed smarter than an adversarial engagement.
So now, after a long and hard-wrought effort to get a concessionary contract in BK, the man comes back with his hand out, asking for a B scale. Here's why a B scale means things get worse no matter what else you lose:
First, who would want to sign on for the lowest wages ever in these size jets yet? Even the young and the hungry will have to have at or near ATP logbooks- with associated cost investment. Everybody's hiring. Eagle would wither from lack of new blood. That'd undermine the other end as well- nobody new, nobody old can leave. The end result is that nobody flows to AA, nobody upgrades, and Eagle shrinks. It's very short-sighted. So even if we only thought we were eating our young, we all suffer. The opposing theory isn't much better- say every pilot out there gets Eagle fever and comes here. With pilots cheaper than ever, and senior pilots resetting pay on themselves by flowing, growth at Eagle at the expense of mainline is further exacerbated. The entire reason the 1500 rule gives leverage at the bargaining table is because it helps normalize costs of pilots at any tier of the industry. Any time we give ground on that, we voluntarily cut our own throats.
Not to mention... The jets going elsewhere? Like the dozens or so jets from SKW/XJT at DFW? Or the RFP Republic already got? I'd be curious to see the 175's in Eagle colors in ORD. Are they even up there?
I think this purchase is for those same airplanes and the previous RFP was a bluff. From what I hear, Republic can't staff the flights it has and is getting sued because of it. As for SKW, their airframe allotment and/or staffing makes them drop the ball on the flying they bit off at DFW so often we fly 9xxx flight numbers all the time to pick up their slack.
So where's this gonna go? Pinnacle? Mesa? Can pilots with loans and stomachs to fill even afford to work there? And there's one other major point- at the end of the day, the overlords in Centerport love control. I can't say I see that changing.
I really don't think that the MEC did this just to thumb their nose at the company. I've seen them first hand game out all the possibilities of something. While some of the personalities involved might not rub others the right way, most of these people are very smart, capable decision makers, and the hard lessons learned by Letter 3 and other things still sit fresh in their minds. They also know that this is a *dangerous* precedent in the regional ranks, and if others follow suit, regional pilot pay will be pushed to the breaking point... But not before it further erodes the amount of mainline flying.
Even if it DID mean the new jets go elsewhere, the minute an Eagle pilot gets kicked to the street it triggers a variety of flow accelerations. All of this was engineered by our MEC.
Wait and see. For the first time in a decade the MEC has the chance to do more than just stop the bleeding.
While I hope it works out as you described, I am really concerned how this will play out.
Regardless, I respect the fact that the Eagle MEC took a stance.
I think it's easy to second-guess the Eagle MEC here, but you're missing the human factors in the politics that underlie a lot of this.
This and the past MEC chair have always supported 'collaborative discussion' with the company because openly talking always seemed smarter than an adversarial engagement.
So now, after a long and hard-wrought effort to get a concessionary contract in BK, the man comes back with his hand out, asking for a B scale. Here's why a B scale means things get worse no matter what else you lose:
First, who would want to sign on for the lowest wages ever in these size jets yet? Even the young and the hungry will have to have at or near ATP logbooks- with associated cost investment. Everybody's hiring. Eagle would wither from lack of new blood. That'd undermine the other end as well- nobody new, nobody old can leave. The end result is that nobody flows to AA, nobody upgrades, and Eagle shrinks. It's very short-sighted. So even if we only thought we were eating our young, we all suffer. The opposing theory isn't much better- say every pilot out there gets Eagle fever and comes here. With pilots cheaper than ever, and senior pilots resetting pay on themselves by flowing, growth at Eagle at the expense of mainline is further exacerbated. The entire reason the 1500 rule gives leverage at the bargaining table is because it helps normalize costs of pilots at any tier of the industry. Any time we give ground on that, we voluntarily cut our own throats.
Not to mention... The jets going elsewhere? Like the dozens or so jets from SKW/XJT at DFW? Or the RFP Republic already got? I'd be curious to see the 175's in Eagle colors in ORD. Are they even up there?
I think this purchase is for those same airplanes and the previous RFP was a bluff. From what I hear, Republic can't staff the flights it has and is getting sued because of it. As for SKW, their airframe allotment and/or staffing makes them drop the ball on the flying they bit off at DFW so often we fly 9xxx flight numbers all the time to pick up their slack.
So where's this gonna go? Pinnacle? Mesa? Can pilots with loans and stomachs to fill even afford to work there? And there's one other major point- at the end of the day, the overlords in Centerport love control. I can't say I see that changing.
I really don't think that the MEC did this just to thumb their nose at the company. I've seen them first hand game out all the possibilities of something. While some of the personalities involved might not rub others the right way, most of these people are very smart, capable decision makers, and the hard lessons learned by Letter 3 and other things still sit fresh in their minds. They also know that this is a *dangerous* precedent in the regional ranks, and if others follow suit, regional pilot pay will be pushed to the breaking point... But not before it further erodes the amount of mainline flying.
Even if it DID mean the new jets go elsewhere, the minute an Eagle pilot gets kicked to the street it triggers a variety of flow accelerations. All of this was engineered by our MEC.
Wait and see. For the first time in a decade the MEC has the chance to do more than just stop the bleeding.
If you agree that outsourcing is fundamentally wrong or deleterious to airline careers, then how can you somehow modify the regionals to mitigate the damage? The genie is already out of the bottle, so how do you limit the damage?
Everyday I am reminded of the paper Tiger ALPA really is. Huge disappointment. And yet, here I am as an idealist trade unionist attempting to convince folks to not accept clear concessions, with nothing in return...much less with something in return. SNAFU at a few MECs right now.
Not to mention... The jets going elsewhere? Like the dozens or so jets from SKW/XJT at DFW? Or the RFP Republic already got? I'd be curious to see the 175's in Eagle colors in ORD. Are they even up there?
I think this purchase is for those same airplanes and the previous RFP was a bluff. From what I hear, Republic can't staff the flights it has and is getting sued because of it.
Planes don't start flying until 8/1. PIT will do initial flying and ORD opens as a Republic base in September. First bids for 60 pilots already out. First plane landed in Indy this morning from Brazil. 2-3 month until we reach 47 aircraft. Staffing is so-so for the EMB's, not so much for the Q's. The "getting sued" part is a silly rumor.
Here's a pic our lovely management posted to our company propaganda website after plane landed in Mecca.
The second thing that has to happen is the removal of longevity incentives that entice people to make careers at the regionals. Start FOs at a decent wage so that you can get good people in the door. Keep CA pay right around the current fourth or fifth year pay so as to encourage people to leave. Start people with 12 or 13 days off per month, but take away the schedules that have 19 or 20. You could also keep 401K match at a modest level and keep PTO at one or two weeks no matter how many years the pilot has been with the company. I really feel that the minute people can have a better life at a regional airline than at a major is the minute that that particular airline begins to fail. And this is where I tie my response back in to this thread.
Seggy said:Are you talking about the Pinnacle MEC?
surreal1221 said:Lol...not even close.