"Airline Internship" at ATP?

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What gets me is when I ask friends who do stuff like this why they did it, the answer usually starts with, "Well, I didn't want to CFI...". If your dream is to be a professional pilot, why would you have no desire to give back and introduce others to the trade? Besides, the more you teach, the more you know, and isn't everyone trying to be the most knowledgeable pilot they can be?
 
ChasenSFO said:
What gets me is when I ask friends who do stuff like this why they did it, the answer usually starts with, "Well, I didn't want to CFI...". If your dream is to be a professional pilot, why would you have no desire to give back and introduce others to the trade? Besides, the more you teach, the more you know, and isn't everyone trying to be the most knowledgeable pilot they can be?
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While CFIing is a great way to go, there are a number of other ways guys can go to build time too, instead of going the PFJ-esqe route.
 
ATP's information about this discussion topic may be found on our website:

<http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/gulfstream_first_officer_program.html>
<http://www.atpflightschool.com/faqs/gulfstream/index.html>

ATP has a policy of not responding to specific posts on discussion forums, but we will try to provide helpful information relevant to the entire thread when possible. We welcome your questions and comments by phone at 800-ALL-ATPS (800-255-2877) or email <admissions@allatps.com>.

We wish you the best of success in achieving your career objectives.

ATP
 
ATP Flight School said:
ATP's information about this discussion topic may be found on our website:

<http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/gulfstream_first_officer_program.html>
<http://www.atpflightschool.com/faqs/gulfstream/index.html>

ATP has a policy of not responding to specific posts on discussion forums, but we will try to provide helpful information relevant to the entire thread when possible. We welcome your questions and comments by phone at 800-ALL-ATPS (800-255-2877) or email <admissions@allatps.com>.

We wish you the best of success in achieving your career objectives.

ATP
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It still doesn't change the fact that you established a partnership with the scum of the industry and therefore you are guilty by association. I will never again suggest to anyone that they attend ATP for any training whatsoever.

Why would I call your stupid 800 number? So I can talk to some of your sales people and get fed a bunch of crap? No thank you.

Oh and by the way, we have all read the FAQ's and they are a pathetic attempt to justify PFT/PFJ. I would think that since Derrick, Jim, and Phil are all ex-airline pilots they would understand the problem with Gulfstream and would steer potential customers away from Gulfstream. Obviously, you guys don't give a damn about anyones career objectives. It is all about the $$$. I guess you guys need some way to pay for 20 D-Jets.

Off topic, but just out of curiosity, how many people have signed up for the Citation ride for $3000??? You know which one I am talking about -- the one that guarantees to "make you remember why you want to be a jet pilot". I know why I want to be a jet pilot, so I can be paid to be a jet pilot, not the other way around.

Thanks for joining the forum, just so you could post links to your website and not actually take part in the discussion.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
[modhat]

Jesus Christ people.....Keep it on the road. If you want to discuss the merits or lack of merits for a given program then feel free to do so. If all you are going to do is trade barbs back and forth then infractions will be handed out accordingly.

[/modhat]
 
It seems the only available resource is to trade barbs, since no one from the school will actually address any questions or concerns voiced.

Sucks, but that's just the way it is.

Much like how my county commissioners make ridiculous policies that I'll loudly voice concern about during a meeting. Yet, they ignore my concerns and questions and follow through with the ridiculous behavior anyway. (hypo!)
 
You have voiced your concerns...over and over and over. It seems to me that the school gave you a response. It did "address" your concerns. Obviously it is not the response you wanted.

You are right. Your only power, if you want to call it that, is to take every personal stab at ATP and anyone posting positively about them here on Jetcareers.com. While doing this, at some point, it becomes counter-productive to your cause as well.
 
ATP Flight School said:
ATP has a policy of not responding to specific posts on discussion forums
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But you just did? Haha


Anyway...
I used to be of the thought that being a CFI was the preferred route, and any other way was wrong. Then I met quite a few people who built hours in other ways and retracked my original thought.

But after getting a few hundred hours in the Saab, some Captains have become quite candid about how they feel about some of their FOs. Basically saying they feel like a CFI again or that they feel like they are single pilot. I had one CA tell me that he was glad that due to the weather conditions that day (circling to minimums) he was glad he was flying with me instead of another FO who had been paired up with the rest of the month. Although its a appaling that at a 121 carrier a CA has to be afraid of how his FO is going to kill him, being a previous CFI will def. help with being able to help "talk through" a situation.
 
After reading this thread, it is clear the name "Gulfstream" sure invokes a lot of anger on this forum. The condemnation stems from the theory that when an FO pays out of pocket for 250 hours of 121 right seat time, he/she is harming the pilot profession because it depresses pilot wages ("If airlines can get people to pay them to fly, it reduces demand...lowering wages, etc.) Makes sense.

However, Gulfstream, albeit a 121 airline, appears to me to be a training platform. Nothing more. From an airline industry point of view, a first year FO at Gulfstream costs the airline $0. Now, from an airline industry point of view, a first year FO at Great Lakes or Lynx (Frontier Express) costs that respective airline, what, $17K per year? Seems to me that if the hatred of Gulfstream stems from the "wage depression" theory, why not direct some of that anger against the other regionals paying first year FO's ridiculous salaries? A kid working full time at McDonald's at $8/hour would earn about what a new FO at Great Lakes or Lynx makes.

Gulfstream earns the ire of the airline industry for depressing wages, but Great Lakes and Lynx are deemed acceptable? Remember, if a new FO at Gulfstream costs the airline $0, and that same new FO costs Great Lakes/Lynx $17K, that is only a $17K swing - equal to about 10% of a Southwest Captain's salary, or one year of burger flipping. But it's Gulfstream (and not other regionals) destroying the industry?

I don't know anything about Gulfstream other than what I've read on this thread and from what I saw on their website. Now one can argue, "at least Great Lakes and Lynx pay SOMETHING," but that argument rings hollow because it belies the fact that GL and Lynx pilots are there to get turbine time, nothing more. Just like Gulfstream pilots. Gulfstream FO's get paid nothing, and Great Lakes/Lynx FO's get paid almost nothing. But Gulfstream is the one destroying the profession? That argument rings hollow.

Incidentally, ATP and Gulstream are both VA-approved. By my calculations, a VA-approved veteran could get all ratings through MEI for $24K at ATP, plus 250 hours of turbine time at Gulfstream for another $10K (60% reimbursement of $25K). 400-450 hours of multi time (250 of which is 121 turbine time) for a total of $34K - not bad, except to the U.S. taxpayer who is funding that party.
 
Everything you said makes perfect sense, but I would just like to add that I'm sure people feel that if Gulfstream didn't let people pay for the right seat, they would actually have to hire people off the street and pay them. With jobs being scarce right now, I understand their frustration.

Poor wages are one thing, depriving people of potential jobs is another.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Everything you said makes perfect sense, but I would just like to add that I'm sure people feel that if Gulfstream didn't let people pay for the right seat, they would actually have to hire people off the street and pay them. With jobs being scarce right now, I understand their frustration.

Poor wages are one thing, depriving people of potential jobs is another.
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I'm absolutely with you, especially with Gulfstream having so many paid FO's on furlough. I just think as much as we want more jobs, good wages, good QOL, good benefits, and good stability in the pilot profession, it's Adam Smith's invisible hand - the MARKET - that drives job openings and wages. Gulfstream has free FO's and that (might) hurt market wages (although the numbers are so small I doubt it). But Great Lakes, Lynx, etc. paying hamburger-flipping wages are just as culpable.

Bottom line - airlines will pay what the market will bear. Right now, one must work for free (or nearly free) at regionals to get a shot at a "real job" in the majors. As long as that's the case, and there are droves to fill those free (or nearly free) FO seats looking for a shot at the majors, the market will not allow better wages and benefits. The airlines, frankly, just don't have to.
 
"ATP has a policy of not responding to specific posts on discussion forums, but we will try to provide helpful information relevant to the entire thread when possible. We welcome your questions and comments by phone at 800-ALL-ATPS..."

Great first post. Sounds like Doug called ATP and this is their response. Really, Dough, do you need these people's money? Especially with a boilerplate response like this?

ATP has joined the ranks of the AOPA/Flight Training mag bottom feeders. You know, the CAPT/Jet U/ATA/Tab Express stuff that makes you an airline pilot if you just write the check. This whole deal with Gulfstream is repulsive.
 
Counselor said:
I'm absolutely with you, especially with Gulfstream having so many paid FO's on furlough. I just think as much as we want more jobs, good wages, good QOL, good benefits, and good stability in the pilot profession, it's Adam Smith's invisible hand - the MARKET - that drives job openings and wages. Gulfstream has free FO's and that (might) hurt market wages (although the numbers are so small I doubt it). But Great Lakes, Lynx, etc. paying hamburger-flipping wages are just as culpable.

Bottom line - airlines will pay what the market will bear. Right now, one must work for free (or nearly free) at regionals to get a shot at a "real job" in the majors. As long as that's the case, and there are droves to fill those free (or nearly free) FO seats looking for a shot at the majors, the market will not allow better wages and benefits. The airlines, frankly, just don't have to.
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But perhaps if this continues, that job you long for in the majors that pays so well might not be there in the future...
 
juxtapilot said:
But perhaps if this continues, that job you long for in the majors that pays so well might not be there in the future...
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My worry too. But to the extent I (or others) are not paid the $500k-equivalents that Pan Am 747 Captains were paid 25 years ago, the reason is simple economics, and only tangentially caused by others taking training shortcuts like PFT/PFJ. When a job is so attractive ("cool") that more people want to do it than are spaces available, the laws of economics dictate depressed wages and working conditions. Why would airlines pay more than they need to? Airlines are for-profit entities whose sole purpose is profit. Unions are the ONLY way to artificially counteract the effects of supply and demand, but I worry about the long term effects of artifically trying to counteract the force of economics (ask the UAW folks and their bosses at GM how things have turned out). It's like putting your thumb in the dike.

Now, the "bright spot" is that the entry fee to play the airline pilot game is so expensive. 50K in training expenses and years of hard work to get the BOTTOM rung on the ladder weeds out many who would otherwise be flooding the industry with us. That decreases the supply side.

Secondly, the industry has now become so unattractive to many already in it that trained pilots are leaving the industry to become nurses, policemen etc. That also helps on the supply side.

As the experiences of pilots from Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, ATA, Aloha.....(United?), can attest, it is so dangerous to cast your family's entire lot into picking this industry, and then hoping that your airline survives. What does it say when a former ATA 757 Captain with 20,000 hours is in a newhire class with a 21 year-old Gulfstream grad at XYZ Regional to fly the same plane, for the same pay, with the former ATA Captain getting ZERO credit for his/her experience?

Unfortunately, only a real pilot shortage will change the economics, and although predicted for decades, one has never materialized. I dare say it is almost irresponsible to enter this industry with one's airline pilot job as the sole source of income. The only way to do this is to establish a non-aviation career or business, and be an airline pilot on the side. Or have a spouse who can support you. Sadly for me and most of you, this is not 1965.

But back to the thread, my ATA example is sad for the ex-ATA pilot and experienced pilots everywhere. And although his Gulfstream classmate took a shortcut, he did not cause the ATA pilot's situation or the state of the airline pilot profession. He did not take down Braniff, Eastern, Aloha, and ATA. There are far stronger forces at play.
 
Just to make it clear.

All Gulfstream pilots are not pilots who went through their PFJ program.

I know it might seem hard to believe, but they do hire pilots off the street, like every other rational company.

That being said, every gumby who pays 25K to sit in the right seat of a transport category aircraft is taking a job away from someone.

The End. No theory, no nothing else.

To me it's not macro-airline pilot staffing. It's micro-airline pilot staffing that, in a time when many very skilled pilots are out of work, for gumby with his 25k to pay to sit in the seat, is absolutely ridiculous. Any objections to such is nonsense and the reason we challenge these institutions.

These types of practices will only continue if we as professionals collectively allow excuses of their existence to persist.
 
You know, maybe this program is not such a bad idea. As ValaRob pointed out, new hire first year FO's are basically interns no matter what airline they are at. As much as we like to think we are highly trained professionals and we collectively deserve much better just because we made it to an airline, the captains we fly with probably think much differently.

Perhaps this is just the beginning of change and may eventually be good for the industry. If new hires already have turbine experience when they go to an airline, the intern period is basically over and they will be a more productive member of the crew. Maybe it is the ones that go to an airline with zero turbine time and expect to be paid good wages that are bringing down the industry beause the company is taking a risk AND has to pay for the intern period.

Maybe instead of bitching and complaining, we should be chanting "Change! Yes we can!"
 
surreal1221 said:
Just to make it clear.

All Gulfstream pilots are not pilots who went through their PFJ program.

I know it might seem hard to believe, but they do hire pilots off the street, like every other rational company.

That being said, every gumby who pays 25K to sit in the right seat of a transport category aircraft is taking a job away from someone.

The End. No theory, no nothing else.

To me it's not macro-airline pilot staffing. It's micro-airline pilot staffing that, in a time when many very skilled pilots are out of work, for gumby with his 25k to pay to sit in the seat, is absolutely ridiculous. Any objections to such is nonsense and the reason we challenge these institutions.

These types of practices will only continue if we as professionals collectively allow excuses of their existence to persist.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying. But when a Gulfstream PFJ FO gets paid nothing, and a Gulfstream/Great Lakes/Lynx "regular" FO gets paid next to nothing, the argument that a Gulfstream FO is taking away a "paid job" per se is somewhat weakened. Is that Gulfstream/Great Lakes/Lynx paid FO position really a "job" at $17K per year, or is it PFJ disguised as a "job." When flipping burgers pays more, I'm not sure it's a pilot "job" as much as it is a training platform that might pay for a cheap apartment and Ramen.

Is Gulfstream's PFJ a moral affront to pilots today? Clearly, and there are emotions associated with the perspective that Gulfstream PFJ FO's are shortcutting, "cutting in line," or not paying their dues. But is a Gulfstream PFJ FO really any different than a first year FO at any other regional? Practically speaking, not by much. The Gulfstream PFJ FO doesn't get his cheap apartment and Ramen paid for (and pays out a sum of money to the airline for the privilege of living like a FO from a "regular" airline).

Things change. American Eagle pilots have written that AA mainline pilots used to say to their faces derogatory things about Eagle jeopardizing AA mainline jobs. Does that stuff happen as much today? Probably not. If you read the threads on this website two years ago, ATP was the devil. Now, DE727UPS's well written opinions notwithstanding, the consensus appears to be ATP is a good product if you can afford it. If pilots realize there is no functional economic difference (as opposed to some kind of moral difference) between a Gulfstream PFJ FO and a paid regional 17K first year FO, Gulfstream's taint may go the way of other former taboos (like ATP - which can probably now assume the mantle of "industry leader" in training).

What's scary is that if the industry continues to shrink, but legions continue to want to become airline pilots, PFJ may not only lose its taint, it may become a de facto price of admission to this game - in addition to the $50K it takes to get your basic ratings. Sadly, there will be no defense. The market will decide for us.
 
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