"Airline Internship" at ATP?

[surreal1221]

One is significantly worse than the other, versus someone actually being paid a wage for a salary.

Sure, the wage may suck, but they're not chunking in 25 grand for the job (if you can even call it that). I go on and on as far as why regional wages are the way they are, especially the first year rates. Nevertheless, it is a job, one that isn't selling out MY seat for 25k so some mentally unstable individual can come up and sit in my seat while I'm out of work, to hell with that.

Yes, I would say a regional FO who didn't pay 25k to sit right seat and watch clouds go by is significantly different than the gumby who did just that, at least on a purely what's more beneficial for the betterment of the profession. Skill wise, no comment - no empirical data to reference. Mentally though? Either through ignorance or a lack of information did the Gulfstream individual end up there shelling over 1/4 of $100,000 to tag along for 250 hours. We're very close to getting rid of all of these panzi-esque schemes in aviation. Multiple companies had PFJ policies a decade ago and we have finally eradicated them from the respectable institutions of employment. Sure, Gulfstream and Key West may continue forever, but the least we can do is explain why their programs will negatively affect YOUR ability to earn a respectable paycheck later on in life, especially if these programs were to make a resurgence. We, as professionals, already watch the street value of our training significantly undercut the day after we earn the certificates. Certainly don't need any more help making us out as cheap bastards who can't provide for our families after we've (some of us, not me thankfully) spent upwards of 50-100k for professional training and education.

There is an economic difference.

Waste another 25k on a useless program, or don't. It's pretty simple, but then again I might be one of the people who has their head screwed on somewhat properly.

I sure as hell wouldn't give ATP 60k, THEN pay another 25k to sit right seat. What is my return on investment? Some mental feel good nonsense that I was a "part-time" FO for 25k, look ma, look at my spiffy uniform, I paid 25k for it! Go me?

Not.

 

[granlistillo]

What's scary is that if the industry continues to shrink, but legions continue to want to become airline pilots, PFJ may not only lose its taint, it may become a de facto price of admission to this game - in addition to the $50K it takes to get your basic ratings. Sadly, there will be no defense. The market will decide for us.

This is the rule rather than the exception in Europe.

 

[surreal1221]

This is the rule rather than the exception in Europe.

And thanks to professional organizations such as ALPA, we have beaten that stick down.

Now it's up to all of us to make sure it stays down and to minimize any future impacts these types of outfits might have.

 

[Counselor]

One is significantly worse than the other, versus someone actually being paid a wage for a salary.

Sure, the wage may suck, but they're not chunking in 25 grand for the job (if you can even call it that). I go on and on as far as why regional wages are the way they are, especially the first year rates. Nevertheless, it is a job, one that isn't selling out MY seat for 25k so some mentally unstable individual can come up and sit in my seat while I'm out of work, to hell with that.

Yes, I would say a regional FO who didn't pay 25k to sit right seat and watch clouds go by is significantly different than the gumby who did just that, at least on a purely what's more beneficial for the betterment of the profession. Skill wise, no comment - no empirical data to reference. Mentally though? Either through ignorance or a lack of information did the Gulfstream individual end up there shelling over 1/4 of $100,000 to tag along for 250 hours. We're very close to getting rid of all of these panzi-esque schemes in aviation. Multiple companies had PFJ policies a decade ago and we have finally eradicated them from the respectable institutions of employment. Sure, Gulfstream and Key West may continue forever, but the least we can do is explain why their programs will negatively affect YOUR ability to earn a respectable paycheck later on in life, especially if these programs were to make a resurgence. We, as professionals, already watch the street value of our training significantly undercut the day after we earn the certificates. Certainly don't need any more help making us out as cheap bastards who can't provide for our families after we've (some of us, not me thankfully) spent upwards of 50-100k for professional training and education.

There is an economic difference.

Waste another 25k on a useless program, or don't. It's pretty simple, but then again I might be one of the people who has their head screwed on somewhat properly.

I sure as hell wouldn't give ATP 60k, THEN pay another 25k to sit right seat. What is my return on investment? Some mental feel good nonsense that I was a "part-time" FO for 25k, look ma, look at my spiffy uniform, I paid 25k for it! Go me?

Not.

I just looked at APC, and I was grossly mistaken. A Great Lakes FO at guarantee makes $13,824 per year - much less than I thought. I could work 40 hours per week at McDonald's, earn about $17k, and still earn more than 3K more than a Great Lakes FO.

Economically, there is no functional difference between a no-pay Gulfstream job and a Great Lakes FO job. If there is a moral reason why Gulfstream's FO's are harming the industry more than a Laker making less than a burger flipper, I'd like to hear it.

One argument I can make in this regard is that Gulfstreamers may be more harmful because if airlines see that some will pay another 25K for the price of admission, maybe all newbies will be willing to pay it.

My only point here it that it strikes me as hypocritical to condemn the Gulfstreamers (who admittedly harm themselves financially - but that it their business), but cheer on those who so desperately seek multi-turbine time that they will go to an airline like Great Lakes to make less than a 16-year old burger flipper. Honestly, what's the difference?

 

[surreal1221]

Well, I can't see it the same way you do.

A Lakes 1st year FO, will upgrade (even in this slow environment) and earn substantially more than the burger flipper and won't be out 25k of his or her own money by sitting right seat. But, that doesn't mean I'm happy with how low their wage scale is. But it's better than being out 25k to do the same thing, and only to do it for 250 hours. So, in the end, I'd wager to say the Lakes FO makes out much better financially. Ethically, they didn't think they could go ahead of guys who are furloughed from a company by simply paying 25k to do it, part time I might add.

At least at Lakes, when they're being a required crewmember of a 121 operator, they're pulling down a salary instead of losing money. The End.

 

[Counselor]

I do think that ATP and Gulfstream have an obligation to explain with candor that after spending $79k, and burning off 250 hours as a Gulfstream PFJ FO, a new graduate of this program has no chance for a job at Gulfstream (furloughs) or any other regional now, or for the next 2 or 3 years.

 

[Counselor]

Well, I can't see it the same way you do.

A Lakes 1st year FO, will upgrade (even in this slow environment) and earn substantially more than the burger flipper and won't be out 25k of his or her own money by sitting right seat. But, that doesn't mean I'm happy with how low their wage scale is. But it's better than being out 25k to do the same thing, and only to do it for 250 hours. So, in the end, I'd wager to say the Lakes FO makes out much better financially. Ethically, they didn't think they could go ahead of guys who are furloughed from a company by simply paying 25k to do it, part time I might add.

At least at Lakes, when they're being a required crewmember of a 121 operator, they're pulling down a salary instead of losing money. The End.

Good points. But Gulfstreamers upgrade too (when there are no furloughs). Not only that, after two years as an FO, a third-year captain at Gulfstream makes more than a third-year captain at Great Lakes on the same equipment: EMB 120 - 41/hr. at Gulf vs. 35/hr. at Lakes. Beech 1900 - 35 at Gulf v. 30 at Great Lakes.

A $5 an hour difference at 72 hours a month is $4320 more at Gulfstream than at Lakes. Cooler places to fly too as well.

OK, I'm gonna stop. Now I'm actually advocating for Gulfstream. Was not my intention.

 

[surreal1221]

Now that'd be a good ethical business practice.

What if they don't do that?

Lord knows that flight schools (any business for that matter) tend to hide certain aspects of their products from their clients.

What about when it's 80K on the line? Should we also just sit back and hope that they'll take the initiative, or is it up to our "community" of training professionals and airline professionals, and some who are both, to educate and inform?

 

[Michael95U]

Economically, there is no functional difference between a no-pay Gulfstream job and a Great Lakes FO job. If there is a moral reason why Gulfstream's FO's are harming the industry more than a Laker making less than a burger flipper, I'd like to hear it.

How can you say there is no difference? In one instance, you are being paid to be a required crew member (called a JOB). In the other instance, you are paying to be a required crew member (not a JOB). I see a lot of difference.

Is the pay bad at Lakes? Sure. But at least there is the high possibility of upgrading. And while Lakes doesn't guarantee you will upgrade or even have a job, what does the Gulfstream program guarantee? They guarantee that for $25k, you get 250 hours of SIC turbine time. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

So economically, I see a HUGE difference.

 

[ChasenSFO]

There are plenty of problems with a career flying for the airlines right now. But those problems have to be prioritized in my opinion. Before we can worry about airlines that pay people next to nothing, we should worry about airlines that make people PAY to occupy a seat that belongs to a furloughed first officer, don't you think?

 

[Counselor]

OK. Now I get it. As long as the job is paid, no matter how much, it passes muster as an acceptable means to build time. $16K? No problem, it's a job, right?

Come on guys, that's a hollow argument. Doesn't Pacific Wings pay $8 an hour? But it's a job, right? What if the 250 hours at Gulfstream were free, and the students did not have to pay? Would that be OK? What if Gulfstream paid a whole $8 an hour? Would that be OK?

All of these first year FO "jobs" are merely time-building opportunities, just like Gulfstream. That some come with a free apartment and Ramen noodles (i.e. $16K per year) does not miraculously distinguish them from Gulfstream, nor somehow cloak them as non-detrimental to the future of airline pilots.

If you can argue with a straight face that Gulfstream PFJ is "detrimental to the industry" on the one hand but try to justify $16K at Great Lakes, more power to you. Can you justify $12K? Can you justify $8K? What's your bottom line, and why?

 

[surreal1221]

No, it's not a hallow agrument.

It's prioritizing the bad from the ugly.

Yes, 8 and 16 an hour to fly people around is bad, but it's not ugly.

Ugly is Gulfstream.

Pretty simple.

 

[Strychnine]

Come on guys, that's a hollow argument. Doesn't Pacific Wings pay $8 an hour? But it's a job, right? What if the 250 hours at Gulfstream were free, and the students did not have to pay? Would that be OK? What if Gulfstream paid a whole $8 an hour? Would that be OK?

The 250 hours at Gulfstream is paid at $8/hour. Not that it even scratches the surface of the price paid for the training.

No, it would not be OK if the time were free and the students paid nothing. The argument would then become that someone is doing what should be a paid job for free. If they paid $8/hour as a legitimate "job", someone would still have an argument. Unless they pay more than every other regional, someone is going to have something negative to say about them.

As a current non-aviator wanting to move into this career, about the only thing that I have noticed is consistent in the industry is whining. Some is valid, some is outlandish. It's not everyone. However, as is usually the case, the complaints are generally louder than everything else.

 

[Strychnine]

No, it's not a hallow agrument.

It's prioritizing the bad from the ugly.

Yes, 8 and 16 an hour to fly people around is bad, but it's not ugly.

Ugly is Gulfstream.

Pretty simple.

It is ugly. I make twice that right now and all I do is keep a medical practice's computer system working. I'm not saying that to brag, since I intend to leave it behind and live on ramen noodles and fried eggs for awhile. I'm saying that because it should piss you off. None of the decisions that I make at work are capable of resulting in anyone's death.

It is all ugly. The pay at all of the regionals is a joke. I have no degree, and not a single bit of formal training in IT. I should not be making more money than ANYONE that flies an aircraft full of people.

It's not Gulfstream's fault. It's the mentality that the regionals were a stepping stone to a "real job" that caused no one to really care about pay and QOL there until now. They were there to pay their dues, meet a major's mins, and tag out like a fat kid in dodgeball. Now the stays are more extended. Regionals might be THE career airline for some. The ticket-buying public (customers) assumes that all pilots are paid well. They expect the pilots ensuring their safety to be paid well. Sadly, they are the only people that can really improve things drastically.

It's the same mentality and struggle that anyone in an unsigned band goes through. Most people think the life of a rockstar is great. Living in a van on the road isn't great. Wondering where gas to get to the next gig, or where the next meal might come from isn't great. But you have to play those shows that pay almost nothing to get your name out there. You have to pay your dues.

 

[Kleigh]

Are the lives of PAX on Regionals any less important than the PAX on Majors? If you strap on an aircraft carrying people you should be paid a salary that reflects that responsibility, no matter how much the tickets cost. They will pay and they might even b*tch a little, but I wonder how many b*tched when Cap'n Sully safely ditched in the Hudson?

 

[DE727UPS]

"OK. Now I get it. As long as the job is paid, no matter how much, it passes muster as an acceptable means to build time. $16K? No problem, it's a job, right?"

While you say this in sarcasim. It is totally, morally, correct. I don't worry much about economics. Being a scab is economically beneficial to the individual. Entering the biz by paying for a job may very well be an economically good choice for the individual. However, it's morally a bad choice and it's an embarrasment for the profession, as a whole.

 

[Callador]

As I mentioned earlier, although it might have been a little too long winded, if there is no penalty to those who do PFJ then there will be no resolution to the issue.

From a new pilot perspective, they probably think the whole Gulfstream thing is a great idea. They get 121 turbine time, which can help on the resume, especially when certain outfits prefer turbine time. And as others have said earlier, they see the program more as an "internship" where they are not taking anyone's jobs. Since the current management in the industry see no moral qualms with it as well, people will go for it.

If it was the other way around, and new pilots were told, "Look if you have any PFJ training crap in your logbooks, you are not going to get hired." I am certain new pilots would avoid those places like the plague. So it seems to me that the chief pilots and HR need to get up to speed on these programs, since I am sure most have no clue about the PFJ practices at Gulfstream, Key Lime etc... And when they are informed about them, they would need to make a stand saying that they would not hire those individuals.

Unfortunately, this is how it works, even outside the pilot industry. Many people like to cut corners and will only not do it when there is a penalty. Look at speeding for instance, without speed limits, Americans would go crazy on the roads! And while I agree this is a much more moral issue than speeding, the same concept can still apply.

 

[Counselor]

"OK. Now I get it. As long as the job is paid, no matter how much, it passes muster as an acceptable means to build time. $16K? No problem, it's a job, right?"

While you say this in sarcasim. It is totally, morally, correct. I don't worry much about economics. Being a scab is economically beneficial to the individual. Entering the biz by paying for a job may very well be an economically good choice for the individual. However, it's morally a bad choice and it's an embarrasment for the profession, as a whole.

Actually, it is only economics. At some point, there is no appreciable "moral" (and certainly no "economic") distinction between paying for 250 hours at Gulfstream (before becoming a regular Gulfstream FO and making more than a Great Lakes FO - on the same equipment), and working for next to nothing at Great Lakes. If Great Lakes paid $5 per hour, you know there would be a line out the door of would-be FO's looking to build multi-turbine time to get to Continental and Southwest. If Great Lakes paid $1 per hour, same thing - we all know it. At $1 per hour, and $5 per hour, however, they would not have the PFJ stigma, I guess? Or if at some point the stigma attached, at what wage? $5, $4, $3?

Great Lakes and Gulfstream and Lynx and New Mexico Airlines and Pac Wings are all the same thing = training platforms. That some have a temporary negative cash flow on the FO (Gulfstream), and some have have a barely registered positive cash flow for the FO (Great Lakes, etc.), is a distinction without a difference. New Mexico Airlines pays $8 per hour, and the pilots throw bags and work the ticket counters! But they have no PFJ stigma? That's not embarrassing?

Wasn't it 10-15 years ago that ASA had a $10,000.00 pay for training requirement (please correct my figures if need be)? Why do those hundreds of guys who paid thousands to ASA and are today at Delta have no black mark PFJ stigma?

Look, the PFJ threads are beaten to death time and time again on this and other forums. From the anti-PFJ crowd (99% of the posts), the argument is vitriolically asserted: PFJ is immoral and evil! I'd like to hear an articulate explanation about how it is immoral given that legions of mainline guys paid for their own training before taking their first regional jobs a decade ago. What is deemed immoral now constituted the foundation of many current mainline pilots' careers (if those careers began in the 1990's). And Great Lakes FO's making less than 16 year-old McDonald's burger flippers are deemed "moral," but Gulfstreamers are "immoral" and an affront to the industry.

Again, I know nothing about Gulfstream other than what I read on their website, so if I'm wrong factually, I would love to hear Gulfstreamers chime in. I want to understand the vitriol associated with PFJ, but the arguments thus far are lacking in logic, but certainly not in intensity.

 

[MikeD]

I posted this in another thread, but is relevant here, IMO:

It's never going to change so long as regional pilots have't a leg to stand on to negotiate with. And they won't, so long as there are Shiny Jet Syndrome wannabe's that are "willing to fly for food;" and CEOs know this. Want better conditions? Why should I, Mr CEO, provide it when I have a stack of resumes just waiting with guys willing to work for beans....or even pay me to work for me! Striking or walking out isn't going to solve the problem; pilots need to stop prostituting themselves out, or be willing to..just to get neat epaulets. All striking will do is shut down service and put everyone out of work, while Mr CEO gets his golden parachute, and the hordes of SJSers come in to get their hands on an RJ.......thus turning EVERY regional into a Freedom/Gulftream/[insert name here] operation.

Just like how I don't fault Gulfstream for the program they have; not one bit. IT wouldn't exist IF pilots weren't willing to do it. They're simply tapping a market......a sneaky/shady one albeit.....but apparently a lucrative one, of prostitute pilots with SJS.

I blame pilots overall. The regional CEOs are simply the opportunists.

 

[Counselor]

I posted this in another thread, but is relevant here, IMO:

Well, I wouldn't blame anyone. The fact of the matter is, legions of people still want to be airline pilots. And legions of people are willing to work for little, for free, and even pay to get the experience they need for a shot at the dream job. It's just the way it is.

Now, at the end of 2007 and beginning of 2008, there was a hint that there might actually be a pilot shortage. It started. When flight schools could not train students because all of their CFI's were sucked into the regionals, do you know what happened? Flight schools were forced to pay CFI's real wages, and induced them to come (and stay) will real benefits! Without enough CFI's to train students, and without enough newly minted commercial pilots (because of the CFI shortage), the regionals might actually have been forced to compete against each other for talent. Competition breeds better salaries, benefits, QOL.

It didn't get to that point because the oil spike killed that very exciting time for the industry, and we are back where we seem to always be in the airline industry. But without that oil spike (and of course this recession), how good might things be?

Nobody's training now, and nobody's lending for students to train. What's gonna happen in 3-4 years when the age 65'ers are forced to retire, and there is no one to backfill the current regional pilots who migrate to the majors? Might we pick up where we left off mid-2008? Honestly, the regionals may have a very real staffing problem. And as the world economy rebounds and Asia and Africa start begging for pilots again, demand will soar - helping everyone.

My own optimistic economic predictions aside, my point is for pilots, this industry rises and falls with supply and demand. Economics drives everything. In the grand scheme of things, paying for 250 hours as "training" or however Gulfstreamers justify it before becoming a "real" FO for Gulfstream Airlines is a blip when compared to the enormous economic forces that control pilot destinies.