Age 60 rule
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Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Alpa was asked to re-examine the rule.
However, on the retirement issue, there's not much you can do in years 60-65 that you couldn't have already done in years 23-60 so retirement is a moot point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well ... The last 5 years of your career should be paid at a much higher rate than any other 5 year block, assuming you can stay with the company you are currently with.
Agreed that times are changing along that line though ...
Alpa was asked to re-examine the rule.
However, on the retirement issue, there's not much you can do in years 60-65 that you couldn't have already done in years 23-60 so retirement is a moot point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well ... The last 5 years of your career should be paid at a much higher rate than any other 5 year block, assuming you can stay with the company you are currently with.
Agreed that times are changing along that line though ...
WIPilot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Alpa was asked to re-examine the rule.
However, on the retirement issue, there's not much you can do in years 60-65 that you couldn't have already done in years 23-60 so retirement is a moot point.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you are 60 dont you think you'd be ready to retire anyway?
Alpa was asked to re-examine the rule.
However, on the retirement issue, there's not much you can do in years 60-65 that you couldn't have already done in years 23-60 so retirement is a moot point.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you are 60 dont you think you'd be ready to retire anyway?
Cruise
Well-Known Member
MF
[/ QUOTE ]Ok, so you've stated your opinion on it being "wrong" on various levels, but I have to disagree.. that's not all that needs to be said. What would be your solution to the Age 60 rule and if you had to determine when pilots would need to retire, how would you implement such a plan? You can't just say "it's wrong" and not offer up a recommended solution. What would be your solution to changing the Age 60 rule and if not by calendar year, how would you determine when a pilot retires? Remember, last thing you want to do is discriminate based on anything but performance and the Age 60 rule takes away any discriminatory actions by HR by putting all the employees in the same situation, doesn't it?
I'm pretty interested in knowing what other opinions are out there (solution wise)- humor me, it takes my mind off of other daily work activities!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok Kristie, I'll offer up my opinion on the subject since it's something I think about on a regular basis.....
....you were looking for "solutions to the problem".....so here's mine, for what it's worth.
I'm definitely in favor of raising the manditory retirement limits for 121 operations. And here's why......
People are living, on average, longer llives. As such, the standard pension plans need to last longer for these individuals. Not to mention the rising costs of everything. By requiring a person to retire by age 60, you cut them out of at least 5, maybe even 10, good years of quality earning potential. With the prospects of social security looking bleak and employer-provided pension not far behind, the employee must earn a greater income, longer in order to fund their own retirement.
So, now that this portion of my diatribe is finished, here's my possible solution:
1st--the medical--in order to maintain a 1st class medical beyond 60 yrs. old, reduce the required renewnal to 3 calander mo. instead of 6.
2nd--the flightdeck--pass regulation requiring crewmembers to consist of not more than 1 pilot over the age of 60 allowed in a 2 or 3 person flightdeck crew.
3rd--recurrent training--doesn't need adjustment from the current requirements
Perhaps this is a simplistic solution, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
Now for my question (thread diversion--not --hijacking)
I'm 33, finally have all my instructor ratings, and am instructing toward my goal of an "airline job." I should have my 1000 - 1200 hours by this fall and realistically could start sending out resumes by summer (when I'll turn 34). Therefore I would have 26 years to earn my nest-egg for retirement under the current regs. So, I'm trying to figure out if it is worth my time to go 121 or pursue a career in 135.
Please correct me if I'm wrong---if I went the 121 route I can expect:
2 - 5 years as an FO for a regional carrier. (pay example XJT--5yr FO @75 hrs/mo = ~$33K/yr)
4 - 6 years as Capt. to build my turbine PIC time to make me eligible for "Major" consideration. (XJT--6yr Capt. @ 75 hrs/mo =~$53K/yr)
In these 11 years, I would have made approx. $493K
This puts me at a minimum age of 40 to a possible of 45. Gives me only 20 - 15 years in the heavies. Now, lets say I do move on to the majors and land that FO job I've been chasing for the last decade of my life.
I can expect to fly right seat for 6 - 8 years. (pay example CAL--7yr FO @72 hrs/mo. =~$97K/yr)
Leaving only another 7 - 14 yrs at Capt. (CAL--10yr Capt. @ 72 hrs/mo. =~$152K/yr.
In the 17 years calculated, a person would have made approx. $1.9 million with CAL.
Now, in the next 5yrs (over 60) a person could make another $800K - $1million approx.
NOTE--pay information provide by Airline Pilot Central
To tie my ramble back to the original subject of AGE 60 RETIREMENT. In the last 5 yrs (over 60yrs of age) a person could make approx half of the salary earned during the previous 17 years. This would be a significant contribution to an idividuals ability to fund their retirement.
Realizing this is an "ideal" situation.....ie. furlough free, vertical movement within a single company. My question then is "Can an individual retire having made this income and paid for all of life's expenses?" I, unfortunately, have a considerable amount of student debt from flight school, undergrad, and grad school. I also realize everyone's situation is different and many factors are involved.
Any opinions from people who are in similar situations?
Whew.....I think I'm done for now.
[/ QUOTE ]Ok, so you've stated your opinion on it being "wrong" on various levels, but I have to disagree.. that's not all that needs to be said. What would be your solution to the Age 60 rule and if you had to determine when pilots would need to retire, how would you implement such a plan? You can't just say "it's wrong" and not offer up a recommended solution. What would be your solution to changing the Age 60 rule and if not by calendar year, how would you determine when a pilot retires? Remember, last thing you want to do is discriminate based on anything but performance and the Age 60 rule takes away any discriminatory actions by HR by putting all the employees in the same situation, doesn't it?
I'm pretty interested in knowing what other opinions are out there (solution wise)- humor me, it takes my mind off of other daily work activities!
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok Kristie, I'll offer up my opinion on the subject since it's something I think about on a regular basis.....
....you were looking for "solutions to the problem".....so here's mine, for what it's worth.
I'm definitely in favor of raising the manditory retirement limits for 121 operations. And here's why......
People are living, on average, longer llives. As such, the standard pension plans need to last longer for these individuals. Not to mention the rising costs of everything. By requiring a person to retire by age 60, you cut them out of at least 5, maybe even 10, good years of quality earning potential. With the prospects of social security looking bleak and employer-provided pension not far behind, the employee must earn a greater income, longer in order to fund their own retirement.
So, now that this portion of my diatribe is finished, here's my possible solution:
1st--the medical--in order to maintain a 1st class medical beyond 60 yrs. old, reduce the required renewnal to 3 calander mo. instead of 6.
2nd--the flightdeck--pass regulation requiring crewmembers to consist of not more than 1 pilot over the age of 60 allowed in a 2 or 3 person flightdeck crew.
3rd--recurrent training--doesn't need adjustment from the current requirements
Perhaps this is a simplistic solution, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
Now for my question (thread diversion--not --hijacking)
I'm 33, finally have all my instructor ratings, and am instructing toward my goal of an "airline job." I should have my 1000 - 1200 hours by this fall and realistically could start sending out resumes by summer (when I'll turn 34). Therefore I would have 26 years to earn my nest-egg for retirement under the current regs. So, I'm trying to figure out if it is worth my time to go 121 or pursue a career in 135.
Please correct me if I'm wrong---if I went the 121 route I can expect:
2 - 5 years as an FO for a regional carrier. (pay example XJT--5yr FO @75 hrs/mo = ~$33K/yr)
4 - 6 years as Capt. to build my turbine PIC time to make me eligible for "Major" consideration. (XJT--6yr Capt. @ 75 hrs/mo =~$53K/yr)
In these 11 years, I would have made approx. $493K
This puts me at a minimum age of 40 to a possible of 45. Gives me only 20 - 15 years in the heavies. Now, lets say I do move on to the majors and land that FO job I've been chasing for the last decade of my life.
I can expect to fly right seat for 6 - 8 years. (pay example CAL--7yr FO @72 hrs/mo. =~$97K/yr)
Leaving only another 7 - 14 yrs at Capt. (CAL--10yr Capt. @ 72 hrs/mo. =~$152K/yr.
In the 17 years calculated, a person would have made approx. $1.9 million with CAL.
Now, in the next 5yrs (over 60) a person could make another $800K - $1million approx.
NOTE--pay information provide by Airline Pilot Central
To tie my ramble back to the original subject of AGE 60 RETIREMENT. In the last 5 yrs (over 60yrs of age) a person could make approx half of the salary earned during the previous 17 years. This would be a significant contribution to an idividuals ability to fund their retirement.
Realizing this is an "ideal" situation.....ie. furlough free, vertical movement within a single company. My question then is "Can an individual retire having made this income and paid for all of life's expenses?" I, unfortunately, have a considerable amount of student debt from flight school, undergrad, and grad school. I also realize everyone's situation is different and many factors are involved.
Any opinions from people who are in similar situations?
Whew.....I think I'm done for now.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Here's something to consider...considering the current state of the industry and the fact that there are litterally thousands of pilots at the regionals today well qualified to move into whatever major jobs present themselves.
I was looking at the Mesa pay scales, if you were a 12 year Captain, it would take you 5 years to equal your pay at Mesa as a new hire at United. If you were 45, today, and a 12th year Capt at Mesa. Would it makes sense to go to United, given you'd be taking a pay cut for 5 years, and given the unstable state of the industry? In my example, you'd be 50 before you equal your pay at Mesa and, if it took you ten years to make Capt at United, you'd only have five years making the big bucks. 12th year Capts pay at Mesa and United (737) are only $41/hr apart. I guess "only" is a relative term, but being in your mid-40's and NOT making a jump to a major is something I'm sure a lot of guys are considering these days.
I was looking at the Mesa pay scales, if you were a 12 year Captain, it would take you 5 years to equal your pay at Mesa as a new hire at United. If you were 45, today, and a 12th year Capt at Mesa. Would it makes sense to go to United, given you'd be taking a pay cut for 5 years, and given the unstable state of the industry? In my example, you'd be 50 before you equal your pay at Mesa and, if it took you ten years to make Capt at United, you'd only have five years making the big bucks. 12th year Capts pay at Mesa and United (737) are only $41/hr apart. I guess "only" is a relative term, but being in your mid-40's and NOT making a jump to a major is something I'm sure a lot of guys are considering these days.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
2nd--the flightdeck--pass regulation requiring crewmembers to consist of not more than 1 pilot over the age of 60 allowed in a 2 or 3 person flightdeck crew.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like your other two points but this one is not necessary if you already have rule 1.
It's ironic that the age 60 rule is being touted as a safety issue, but when pilots get together to talk about it, it's really about clearing out the seniority list so younger pilots can advance more quickly.
I can't see how this isn't blatant age discrimination ...
2nd--the flightdeck--pass regulation requiring crewmembers to consist of not more than 1 pilot over the age of 60 allowed in a 2 or 3 person flightdeck crew.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like your other two points but this one is not necessary if you already have rule 1.
It's ironic that the age 60 rule is being touted as a safety issue, but when pilots get together to talk about it, it's really about clearing out the seniority list so younger pilots can advance more quickly.
I can't see how this isn't blatant age discrimination ...
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2nd--the flightdeck--pass regulation requiring crewmembers to consist of not more than 1 pilot over the age of 60 allowed in a 2 or 3 person flightdeck crew.
[/ QUOTE ]I like your other two points but this one is not necessary if you already have rule 1. . . .
I can't see how this isn't blatant age discrimination ...
[/ QUOTE ]
The probability of two 65+ y/o pilots who both have passed a flight physical w/in 3 months both dying suddenly within 12 hours of each other has got to be astronomical.
[ QUOTE ]
2nd--the flightdeck--pass regulation requiring crewmembers to consist of not more than 1 pilot over the age of 60 allowed in a 2 or 3 person flightdeck crew.
[/ QUOTE ]I like your other two points but this one is not necessary if you already have rule 1. . . .
I can't see how this isn't blatant age discrimination ...
[/ QUOTE ]
Cruise
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2nd--the flightdeck--pass regulation requiring crewmembers to consist of not more than 1 pilot over the age of 60 allowed in a 2 or 3 person flightdeck crew.
[/ QUOTE ]I like your other two points but this one is not necessary if you already have rule 1. . . .
I can't see how this isn't blatant age discrimination ...
[/ QUOTE ]
The probability of two 65+ y/o pilots who both have passed a flight physical w/in 3 months both dying suddenly within 12 hours of each other has got to be astronomical.
[/ QUOTE ]
John & Minn. Flyer,
I included my flightdeck requirements more from a PR standpoint (ie. yes, it's true the Capt. is 67yrs old....but the FO is only 45 and a very skilled pilot as well....able to handle any situation that could arise). I definitely agree the possibility of both pilots(60+ w/ current 1st class meds.) keeling over during flight a very remote possibility. However, since it is still a possibility, the flightdeck requirement could be used more as a bargaining / passenger satisfaction tool from the powers-that-be.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2nd--the flightdeck--pass regulation requiring crewmembers to consist of not more than 1 pilot over the age of 60 allowed in a 2 or 3 person flightdeck crew.
[/ QUOTE ]I like your other two points but this one is not necessary if you already have rule 1. . . .
I can't see how this isn't blatant age discrimination ...
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
John & Minn. Flyer,
I included my flightdeck requirements more from a PR standpoint (ie. yes, it's true the Capt. is 67yrs old....but the FO is only 45 and a very skilled pilot as well....able to handle any situation that could arise). I definitely agree the possibility of both pilots(60+ w/ current 1st class meds.) keeling over during flight a very remote possibility. However, since it is still a possibility, the flightdeck requirement could be used more as a bargaining / passenger satisfaction tool from the powers-that-be.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I never understood growing up is, why is it age descrimination when talking about older folks, but when you cant get hired because you are 16, why isnt that?
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL you got one there
That's a pretty good point. I know some 16 year olds I would rather have working for me than some much older.
I'm glad I grew up before they made the drinking age 21 (to slide off topic just a bit) because I learned HOW to drink moderately, stay sober and then drive home safely. I see some mid 20s people sliding all over the roads here in Orlando, especially now during spring break.
[/hijack]
One thing I never understood growing up is, why is it age descrimination when talking about older folks, but when you cant get hired because you are 16, why isnt that?
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL you got one there
I'm glad I grew up before they made the drinking age 21 (to slide off topic just a bit) because I learned HOW to drink moderately, stay sober and then drive home safely. I see some mid 20s people sliding all over the roads here in Orlando, especially now during spring break.
[/hijack]
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I never understood growing up is, why is it age descrimination when talking about older folks, but when you cant get hired because you are 16, why isnt that?
[/ QUOTE ]In a lot of cases it's because state and federal child labor laws place signficant restrictions on employment of anyone under 18 (there are different rules for 16-17, 14-15, and under 14 -- and this may vary by state). Not saying it's right (especially at 16-17), but the gov't feels the need to protect you from exploitation, and the result is restrictions that many employers don't want to deal with.
Plus, I'm not aware of any age discrimination statute that covers minors.
MF
One thing I never understood growing up is, why is it age descrimination when talking about older folks, but when you cant get hired because you are 16, why isnt that?
[/ QUOTE ]In a lot of cases it's because state and federal child labor laws place signficant restrictions on employment of anyone under 18 (there are different rules for 16-17, 14-15, and under 14 -- and this may vary by state). Not saying it's right (especially at 16-17), but the gov't feels the need to protect you from exploitation, and the result is restrictions that many employers don't want to deal with.
Plus, I'm not aware of any age discrimination statute that covers minors.
MF
buffalopilot
Well-Known Member
AOPA is going to be doing a study about accidents and incidents with pilots over 60, check it out.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
AOPA is going to be doing a study about accidents and incidents with pilots over 60, check it out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm curious to see what 60+ pilots they're planning on using for the study. Will it include ALL pilots over 60 that were involved in accidents or incidents?
Will the ratings held by the individual pilots be noted?
For example, will they be the senior private pilot who flies his cub or cessna 140 once a month on "joy-rides", or will they be recently retired professional ATP pilot who is now enjoying flying for fun.
I think the results would be drastically different.
Depending on the subjects used for the study, the outcome could be skewed to represent whatever result the researcher wants to prove!
Opinions?
AOPA is going to be doing a study about accidents and incidents with pilots over 60, check it out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm curious to see what 60+ pilots they're planning on using for the study. Will it include ALL pilots over 60 that were involved in accidents or incidents?
Will the ratings held by the individual pilots be noted?
For example, will they be the senior private pilot who flies his cub or cessna 140 once a month on "joy-rides", or will they be recently retired professional ATP pilot who is now enjoying flying for fun.
I think the results would be drastically different.
Depending on the subjects used for the study, the outcome could be skewed to represent whatever result the researcher wants to prove!
Opinions?
Cruise
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
However, on the retirement issue, there's not much you can do in years 60-65 that you couldn't have already done in years 23-60 so retirement is a moot point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I beg to differ. Not all of us are as fortunate as you, Doug, to have begun our professional aviation career at 23.
For many, such as myself, won't begin flying professionally until later in our 30's or 40's. In fact, I am currently instructing a private pilot student that is 48 yrs old and has asspirations of flying professionally.
Therefore, the ability to fly beyond age 60 and earn an income to save for retirement is critical!
However, on the retirement issue, there's not much you can do in years 60-65 that you couldn't have already done in years 23-60 so retirement is a moot point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I beg to differ. Not all of us are as fortunate as you, Doug, to have begun our professional aviation career at 23.
For many, such as myself, won't begin flying professionally until later in our 30's or 40's. In fact, I am currently instructing a private pilot student that is 48 yrs old and has asspirations of flying professionally.
Therefore, the ability to fly beyond age 60 and earn an income to save for retirement is critical!
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