9L, 9E, XJ JCBA executive summary

[jynxyjoe]

I feel like you scrolled down to page 18 & 19, then made your decision within a few seconds.

Maybe he really read the whole thing and then drew a line in the sand. I just don't know who is on the other side of the line come April... anyway. There will be guys at all three companies whose opinions begin and end at the pay.

With that said, if pay was an issue, I believe ASA/XJT will be hiring shortly.

JrsyGuy, why did you goto Colgan to begin with? Perhaps those original reasons for coming to Colgan, paired with an increase in pay and QOL and pay, and pay- will make this easier to swallow.

 

[JrsyGuy]

LOL. Ok man.

You realize about 2-3 months from now YOU and all of "Colgan" is a Mesaba or Pinnacle guy right?

Did you completely miss the fact that there are separate pay scales for current colgan guys and for current mesaba guys? Well now you know since I just told you so you won't think the same way.

I feel like you scrolled down to page 18 & 19, then made your decision within a few seconds.

Not true at all. I read it all page by page but I still had to end on the pay rates. If everyone at all groups got crummy pay with a great contract then it would be one thing. But for some pilots to do well and others to be told "you aren't worth what these other guys are" just isn't the right thing to do.

Could you imagine what the pinnacle guys would say if they were given payrates not much more then they had on the CRJ's and Mesaba guys had a higher "grandfathered" rate??? They would be picketting in the streets as we speak.

 

[matt152]

LOL. Ok man.

You realize about 2-3 months from now YOU and all of "Colgan" is a Mesaba or Pinnacle guy right?

Under this TA, he would be a 2nd class Mesaba guy.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I agree. It seems that there are specific carve outs in this TA against the Colgan pilot group. Lesser pay for flying the same equipment; no min pay for the smaller outstation bases. Some people say that we will recover that when we upgrade, but that is going to be a far way off for most Colgan FOs. In the meantime we will be scratching out a living on these B-scale Saab rates. How is accepting a lesser pay scale raising the bar for the industry? What happened to Mesaba Plus? The other aspects of this TA are an improvement over the status quo, but the separate pay rates are a dealbreaker for me.

Ah, standing on principal.

Don't you know, when in her majesty's service, you must always pick the lesser of two weevlis!

 

[nc1982]

I didn't expect many XJ or 9E guys to care about what happens to Colgan, but it's a shame to read what some of you are saying. Some of the details on the summary are outrageous. This is an absolute joke of a deal for any colgan guy. I don't understand the mentality of "a prop has never paid well, so we can't ask for more". We all know the plane does the same work, and paying a 74 seat plane less than a very unproductive and outdated 50 seat airplane shouldn't be accepted. Not to mention I personally stand to see a 50 cent raise in my hourly figure! 50 CENTS!!! Not quite the windfall that everyone kept preaching colgan would see. It just seems like there was a contract made for pinnacle and mesaba and then colgan got the left over scraps. I am embarrassed this made it out of the JNC.

And you think you guys could have gotten something better on your own? 9E guys went through 6 years of bullcrap from managament, you think you could have squeezed a couple more dollars AND the QOL improvements on your own from this management group? I just don't get it. Why don't you guys go to the road shows before getting upset about the split pay rates.

 

[JrsyGuy]

Maybe he really read the whole thing and then drew a line in the sand. I just don't know who is on the other side of the line come April... anyway. There will be guys at all three companies whose opinions begin and end at the pay.

With that said, if pay was an issue, I believe ASA/XJT will be hiring shortly.

JrsyGuy, why did you goto Colgan to begin with? Perhaps those original reasons for coming to Colgan, paired with an increase in pay and QOL and pay, and pay- will make this easier to swallow.

Funny how everyone preached about how colgan was going to get the windfall contract, yet on page four of the summary it has PCL pilots getting up to 38% increases. AND the PCL group gets that signing bonus on top. I completely understand why they get the bonus and I don't even want anyone to begin to think Colgan or Mesaba guys are entitled to any of it but it is still there to make up for your years of miserable pay and rules. Yet colgan has had more miserable pay and more miserable rules and are still going to see the same trend continue for the next 5 years.

How can someone say they feel we deserve more in 5 years and say we should just be happy now. Why don't pilots flying these airplanes deserve those rates today?

 

[JrsyGuy]

And you think you guys could have gotten something better on your own? 9E guys went through 6 years of bullcrap from managament, you think you could have squeezed a couple more dollars AND the QOL improvements on your own from this management group? I just don't get it. Why don't you guys go to the road shows before getting upset about the split pay rates.

I don't think the overall contract would have been much differnt had we gone off on our own. Don't forget, there are carve outs specifically and only for current colgan pilots. I will only see a 50 cent increase off this contract. THAT would have most definatley came on our own negotiations.

At the very least, if we don't allow this past our MEC we will get "grandfathered" into the current mesaba contract. So why in the world would we say yes to mesaba minus?????

 

[jynxyjoe]

Did you completely miss the fact that there are separate pay scales for current colgan guys and for current mesaba guys? Well now you know since I just told you so you won't think the same way.


Not true at all. I read it all page by page but I still had to end on the pay rates. If everyone at all groups got crummy pay with a great contract then it would be one thing. But for some pilots to do well and others to be told "you aren't worth what these other guys are" just isn't the right thing to do.

Could you imagine what the pinnacle guys would say if they were given payrates not much more then they had on the CRJ's and Mesaba guys had a higher "grandfathered" rate??? They would be picketting in the streets as we speak.

Under this TA, he would be a 2nd class Mesaba guy.

Ah you two!

I have no problem with you standing on principal. In fact, I think you have a valid question to bring up to your MEC's and LEC's on the phone. I think, if you listen to the reasoning used at the bargaining table, you will understand why this was agreed to.

Something I think you may want to remind yourself, is that this JCBA was a negotiation, not a stick up. Furthermore, I'd remind you not sound off at Mesaba guys about "you carving a section out, blah blah blah." We, at Mesaba, got DH pay and a little insurance tossed our way. That's about it. Don't draw the line in the sand at my feet . Besides my friends, we are soon to be together in every way possible, so try and play nice .

 

[jynxyjoe]

Funny how everyone preached about how colgan was going to get the windfall contract, yet on page four of the summary it has PCL pilots getting up to 38% increases. AND the PCL group gets that signing bonus on top. I completely understand why they get the bonus and I don't even want anyone to begin to think Colgan or Mesaba guys are entitled to any of it but it is still there to make up for your years of miserable pay and rules. Yet colgan has had more miserable pay and more miserable rules and are still going to see the same trend continue for the next 5 years.

How can someone say they feel we deserve more in 5 years and say we should just be happy now. Why don't pilots flying these airplanes deserve those rates today?

You weren't unionized, in fact you said no the first time as a pilot group, then you had no contract. It's very tough to make an argument that you are deserved back pay when you weren't in an amendable contract.

WITH THAT SAID, I'm not a professional negotiation expert and there is no way for me to know if I'm completely oblivious to some other real facts. I really would invite you to see things from the negotiating table (in talking to your MECs), perhaps you can find some peace of mind.

 

[L-16B]

Wow. I'm going to end up a March 08 hire (started class in March, checkride in May) and I am barely a line holder at Pinnacle on the 200 in DTW. SLI is going to get interesting.

And to whoever asked about seniority in ATL. Pinnacle just closed a vacancy last week and I would have 2 people below me if I went there.

Sorry, wasnt trying to start that topic! Just meant Ive been trying to get out of EWR for 3 years! But hey it's ok I was hired on the saab for IAH... or thats what they told me... :rotfl: little did I know!

 

[jynxyjoe]

I don't think the overall contract would have been much differnt had we gone off on our own. Don't forget, there are carve outs specifically and only for current colgan pilots. I will only see a 50 cent increase off this contract. THAT would have most definatley came on our own negotiations.

At the very least, if we don't allow this past our MEC we will get "grandfathered" into the current mesaba contract. So why in the world would we say yes to mesaba minus?????

ABSOLUTELY a solid argument. One that I made at length to anyone on the status rep that would listen to me. That included JM MN and my status reps in MEM. I don't know why we didn't go that way, but MN felt that if we didn't hang together as one Seniority list and one Contract, that we'd hang separately. MN is a brute and a mean spirited guy, but he's our brute and he's a God damn lot smarter than I am. I accepted his reasoning, but I agree that we should have pushed our contract onto Colgan immediately THEN, after causing major chaos and possibly hamstringing the company, we could come to the table with a single contract.

My way is amateur hour and ugly. I can't promise it would have the intended results... would have been fun though.

 

[JrsyGuy]

My issues aren't directed at the mesaba pilot group specifically. It's with anyone who would vote yes and watch their bretheren that they will be flying with suffer. We are supposed to be moving the industry forward and yet we are going backwards on things. There are a lot of good things in the contract but as soon as some guys dont get what others get then its an absolute no. Everyone needs to be on a level playing field. No one is better, or more valuable than anyone else.

Again, what would pinnacle guys say to being told they can't get the same pay as mesaba guys on the RJ's??? It would never happen! And THAT's my issue.

 

[JrsyGuy]

You weren't unionized, in fact you said no the first time as a pilot group, then you had no contract. It's very tough to make an argument that you are deserved back pay when you weren't in an amendable contract.

Not being a DB, but I specifically said I didn't think we were owed any part of 9E's bonus.

ABSOLUTELY a solid argument. One that I made at length to anyone on the status rep that would listen to me. That included JM MN and my status reps in MEM. I don't know why we didn't go that way, but MN felt that if we didn't hang together as one Seniority list and one Contract, that we'd hang separately. MN is a brute and a mean spirited guy, but he's our brute and he's a God damn lot smarter than I am. I accepted his reasoning, but I agree that we should have pushed our contract onto Colgan immediately THEN, after causing major chaos and possibly hamstringing the company, we could come to the table with a single contract.

My way is amateur hour and ugly. I can't promise it would have the intended results... would have been fun though.

That would have been a great option. Either way you can't go backwards

 

[jynxyjoe]

My issues aren't directed at the mesaba pilot group specifically. It's with anyone who would vote yes and watch their bretheren that they will be flying with suffer. We are supposed to be moving the industry forward and yet we are going backwards on things. There are a lot of good things in the contract but as soon as some guys dont get what others get then its an absolute no. Everyone needs to be on a level playing field. No one is better, or more valuable than anyone else.

Again, what would pinnacle guys say to being told they can't get the same pay as mesaba guys on the RJ's??? It would never happen! And THAT's my issue.

Jeesh. I think suffering is a little too strong a word. Also, if I was a betting, I'd say out station basing is bye bye. Cost savings for a Hub is just too much to ignore.

 

[JrsyGuy]

Suffering worse then guys who are doing the exact same thing.. Two guys, same equipment, same duration, should not be given different pay structure

 

[jynxyjoe]

Not being a DB, but I specifically said I didn't think we were owed any part of 9E's bonus.

Perhaps I completely misread or misunderstood what you are saying. I would be guessing if I said I understood the bolded part. "Yet colgan has had more miserable pay and more miserable rules and are still going to see the same trend continue for the next 5 years."

Colgan pilots wanted to work for Colgan with their lesser pay and work rules. Or at the very least, rationalized working there to obfuscate their desire hold out for another airline. Your pay and work rules should be brought up because they were bad, and that is being done in part, although not to Mesaba's level. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "back pay" but you feel you are entitled to some compensation for your troubles and I don't see what your argument is for it, other than, we should be treated the same as other Pinnacolaba pilots.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Suffering worse then guys who are doing the exact same thing.. Two guys, same equipment, same duration, should not be given different pay structure

Again, you make an impassioned and principled argument. That alone, I don't feel, is enough.

 

[JrsyGuy]

Perhaps I completely misread or misunderstood what you are saying. I would be guessing if I said I understood the bolded part. "Yet colgan has had more miserable pay and more miserable rules and are still going to see the same trend continue for the next 5 years."

Colgan pilots wanted to work for Colgan with their lesser pay and work rules. Or at the very least, rationalized working there to obfuscate their desire hold out for another airline. Your pay and work rules should be brought up because they were bad, and that is being done in part, although not to Mesaba's level. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "back pay" but you feel you are entitled to some compensation for your troubles and I don't see what your argument is for it, other than, we should be treated the same as other Pinnacolaba pilots.

Based on the argument I would say that pinnacle pilots chose to work where they are for the rates they are working under. No difference.
And how is my argument not good enough? What is your argument to say we don't deserve what the rest of the pilot group is going to be getting? And why our work is less important and valuable to the company?

Again, you make an impassioned and principled argument. That alone, I don't feel, is enough.

Again, why?

 

[v1valarob]

Again, what would pinnacle guys say to being told they can't get the same pay as mesaba guys on the RJ's??? It would never happen! And THAT's my issue.

Youre right it would never happen because the RJ and the Q400 are the future of this company, not the Saab. I would almost expect the Saab to be close to phased out by then, at least the Colgan ones, which will NOT last until 2015.

How many guys right now out of Mesaba are upgrading to the left seat of the Saab? Whats the most junior Saab captain over at Mesaba? From what I have seen, no one over there is upgrading into the left seat of the Saab, so you dont have guys currently being grandfathered into those Captain rates. You do however have guys who have been working under fairly high rates for awhile, and if you were to cut those rates, then this TA is sure to fail. However PNCL was probably willing to give us more in other areas because we were willing to keep lower than Mesaba rates, but still higher than current Colgan rates.

Think about it this way, you currently have 129 Captains on the Saab at Colgan who were able to bid a line for January. How many of those guys, if they were over at Mesaba with the same hire date, would be in the left seat? Not too many. The only Saab guys that should really be pissed, are the old school Colgan guys who are sticking it out in the Saab still. What I am trying to say is, if you were over at Mesaba, you probably still wouldnt be getting those grandfathered rates, you would still be throwing gear.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Based on the argument I would say that pinnacle pilots chose to work where they are for the rates they are working under. No difference.
And how is my argument not good enough? What is your argument to say we don't deserve what the rest of the pilot group is going to be getting? And why our work is less important and valuable to the company?



Again, why?

I feel like, the argument revolves MORE around where the pay raises are going, than the rates themselves.

To say it another way. Is it fair that Colgan get the majority of the pay raises? It's not like your levels aren't being brought up later, they most certainly are. Saab rates are already WAY past industry leading, why can't we finance the -200 and -900 rates with the saab/Q rates to get them up to industry average? Some people would say, instead of 100 Christmas's all at once, you get them ten at a time. Meanwhile we help out the OTHER pilots who are in this pilot group.

I'm not a rep, I don't speak for a rep, talk to your rep and see what they say.