9L, 9E, XJ JCBA executive summary

Ok so this question may be jumping the gun here, as this agreement is still tentative, but I'm curious as to what the plan is for seniority list integration. Is it something that will happen soon after a single contract gets voted in, or is it still a long ways away? Also, what's the word on fences? I've heard all different rumors.
 
v1valarob said:
You have to remember that these split pay scales arent going to affect many people. You and I for example, will hopefully see upgrade within the next 12 months. We will then be put into the new rates. Any other Mesaba guys that are upgrading into the Saab will be paid at the same rate as us. The only guys who are going to feel like they are getting a bit of a shaft, are those guys who are currently CAs on the Saab at Colgan, and plan to stay there for a few more years. After looking at the rates on some of the other aircraft, I cant see any reason to stick around on the Saab unless you just like the base.

I think people are making too big of a deal out of the seperated pay scales, when its a very small group that will be affected, for a short period of time.

As for the 4 hour min day, those out stations typically fly more than 4 hours a day anyway. In fact those guys have some of highest crediting schedules.

Im hoping that they have some other language regarding hubs. What if UAL says "hey, can you guys operate 4 Qs out of Denver?" Then Mesaba staffs it with under 25 pilots and we are screwed out of a 4hr day, even though its a hub. Is a reserve day 4 hours of pay for the out stations? What about if I am TDY'd to PQI for a week? Is it my home base that causes me to earn my 4 hours, or the base I am working in? This is where the language will come into play.
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- I don't, what incentive is there to close outstations now? (4 hour min) why would saab guys get paid differently based on what company they come from?
 
If the PER MONTH insurance rates are as posted in the TA, then there is a significant cost benefit for me under my plan of self+1. I am paying about $300.00/mo under the current plan vs. $180 or so under the proposed insurance rates in the TA. The pay-raise plus this cost savings represents a significant bump in my paycheck, however, I am still not happy with this pay-scale no matter what the reasoning.
 
v1valarob said:
CRJ9 FO makes as much as a current CJC SF3 CA.
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Don't really care to much about the seat, but more interested in a decent schedule for a change. I'd rather be a senior jet F/O than SAAB Captain on reserve in a crappy domicile. Same pay, and less BS.
 
BE19Pilot said:
If the PER MONTH insurance rates are as posted in the TA, then there is a significant cost benefit for me under my plan of self+1. I am paying about $300.00/mo under the current plan vs. $180 or so under the proposed insurance rates in the TA. The pay-raise plus this cost savings represents a significant bump in my paycheck, however, I am still not happy with this pay-scale no matter what the reasoning.
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So you're insurance is going down.. Mine is going up it looks like.. ;)
 
Tram said:
So you're insurance is going down.. Mine is going up it looks like.. ;)
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I know that was a big sticking point for the 9E guys. I know the full language isn't out there yet, but just by looking at the summary, how much of an increase in costs is it gonna be for you guys? Will the increase in pay make up for the increase in insurance costs? Hopefully you 9E guys also got what you had been wanting as far as QOL issues. Also for the 9L guys, unless your like a 06 hire, I don't think you will see the 900. With all the senior saab guys getting displaced, expect the 900 to go super senior now.
 
BE19Pilot said:
You are probably correct, but hard numbers...i.e., pay-scale is something people can get their arms around and see. So, it is a bit of an emotional issue where pay is concerned and a lot of us have been dealing with this emaciated pay-scale for some time now. And, for some the soft-money issue isn't as big a deal as a substantial pay-raise is (put me in that category). Frankly, I have not been extended enough or JRM'd to the point where I am concerned about it. However, we do need some clarity and firm work-rules for what the company can and cannot do over the life of the contract. I have read a lot of discussion here about the palatability of this split pay-scale being a function of one's ability to move to other equipment across certificates. Will this be a possibility?
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Remember with a contract with soft pay, the pay scale is not as significant as it is under your present CBA. Don't look at it as "right now I wouldn't get much soft pay", and the reason for that is all the ancillary stuff is going to change as well.

With the concepts I see being floated in this thread, it looks like soft pay extends far beyond junior manning or extensions.

I guess, what I'm saying is, you can't compare tomorrow's pay scale vis today's pay scale as a sole means of comparison. A complex contract actually requires one to analyze all the components to come up with the actual W2 number.
 
nc1982 said:
I know that was a big sticking point for the 9E guys. I know the full language isn't out there yet, but just by looking at the summary, how much of an increase in costs is it gonna be for you guys? Will the increase in pay make up for the increase in insurance costs? Hopefully you 9E guys also got what you had been wanting as far as QOL issues. Also for the 9L guys, unless your like a 06 hire, I don't think you will see the 900. With all the senior saab guys getting displaced, expect the 900 to go super senior now.
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Well, in reality, we had rockin' insurance costs.. I mean, I'm realistic - it sorta "had" to go up.. I currently pay $170 a month for a family for the basic insurance package..

From what I'm seeing, it looks like the contract is decent, overall.. Much better than what we currently had.. Of course, there will be a few items that will stick in someone's crawl but that's just part of it.. I can't wait to see how the "bonus money" plays out on the 9E portion of the property.. We've got guys with a "lawyer on retainer" if they don't get "their fair share" of the bonus.. :rolleyes:

I think we all need to look at the TA from a realistic POV not just through a "what am I getting/how am I getting shafted" eye..

The simple fact of the matter is:

If the majority of the 9E and XJ guys vote yes, every single 9L pilot could vote no and it would still pass..
If all 9L and XJ guys vote no, every 9E pilot could vote yes and it wouldn't pass..
If all 9L and 9E pilots vote yes, all XJ guys could vote no.. It'll still pass..

I don't think any single one of the airlines involved with this deal could have pulled what I'm seeing out on their own, not based on what I've seen over the last 3.5 years worth of negotiations..

9E needed XJ to pull up their end of the agreement - pay rates, some of the QOL stuff, etc..
XJ needed 9E and 9L to keep their heads above water and stay, for now, the furloughs that it looked like might be looming..
9L needed XJ and 9E to be able to get this sort of contract as their "first out of the gates.."

I think the 3 groups wound up getting a decent contract.. I've been extremely pessimistic about the entire deal and it looks like in the end, we (XJ, 9E, CJC) finally pulled it out.. I think it's time we all start acting like one airline and get over the petty bickering I'm seeing, myself included..

FWIW.. I see this thing passing by atleast 85%..
 
I read over the Executive summary, and overall I think that the negotiating committee did an excellent job! There is much more to be pleased with than to be unhappy about given the lack of work rules and structure we have had at Colgan for the last 6+ years of my association with this place. I stated earlier that it is obvious that the JCBA had to make some serious concessions on the pay issue, and it is my hope that we can really do some ass-kicking once we get more Qs and more 900s on the property and show management what we can do with a solid pilot group (Mesaba/Pinnacle) under contract. After 2012 when the legacies really start a spree of retirement driven hiring, we that perhaps choose to stay can take advantage of the opportunities for rapid progression to our top-paying equipment with decent QOL. Voting...YES! With a grumble over that darn SF-340 pay.
 
Tram said:
Well, in reality, we had rockin' insurance costs.. I mean, I'm realistic - it sorta "had" to go up.. I currently pay $170 a month for a family for the basic insurance package..

From what I'm seeing, it looks like the contract is decent, overall.. Much better than what we currently had.. Of course, there will be a few items that will stick in someone's crawl but that's just part of it.. I can't wait to see how the "bonus money" plays out on the 9E portion of the property.. We've got guys with a "lawyer on retainer" if they don't get "their fair share" of the bonus.. :rolleyes:

I think we all need to look at the TA from a realistic POV not just through a "what am I getting/how am I getting shafted" eye..

The simple fact of the matter is:

If the majority of the 9E and XJ guys vote yes, every single 9L pilot could vote no and it would still pass..
If all 9L and XJ guys vote no, every 9E pilot could vote yes and it wouldn't pass..
If all 9L and 9E pilots vote yes, all XJ guys could vote no.. It'll still pass..

I don't think any single one of the airlines involved with this deal could have pulled what I'm seeing out on their own, not based on what I've seen over the last 3.5 years worth of negotiations..

9E needed XJ to pull up their end of the agreement - pay rates, some of the QOL stuff, etc..
XJ needed 9E and 9L to keep their heads above water and stay, for now, the furloughs that it looked like might be looming..
9L needed XJ and 9E to be able to get this sort of contract as their "first out of the gates.."

I think the 3 groups wound up getting a decent contract.. I've been extremely pessimistic about the entire deal and it looks like in the end, we (XJ, 9E, CJC) finally pulled it out.. I think it's time we all start acting like one airline and get over the petty bickering I'm seeing, myself included..

FWIW.. I see this thing passing by atleast 85%..
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Well said man.
 
Tram said:
9E needed XJ to pull up their end of the agreement - pay rates, some of the QOL stuff, etc..
XJ needed 9E and 9L to keep their heads above water and stay, for now, the furloughs that it looked like might be looming..
9L needed XJ and 9E to be able to get this sort of contract as their "first out of the gates.."
.
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Let's be honest. XJ has been a slinky in staffing and in aircraft types. We've always shrunk and rebounded. This newest disaster (Delta) isn't the worst this company has seen. All our furloughs, including me, would just have to pick up jobs somewhere else, like countless others were at this company, and happened on the bottom half of the list. MAYBE 9E will bring some stability. Maybe.

I hope the next company we buy is non union, make things a little easier on everyone.

For those keeping track, yes Delta was the disaster, not Pinnacle taking possession. Pinnacle may be a moral buster, but certainly we all wake up every day thanking Delta for our current woes.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Let's be honest. XJ has been a slinky in staffing and in aircraft types. We've always shrunk and rebounded. This newest disaster (Delta) isn't the worst this company has seen. All our furloughs, including me, would just have to pick up jobs somewhere else, like countless others were at this company, and happened on the bottom half of the list. MAYBE 9E will bring some stability. Maybe.
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Again, I wasn't trying to start anything.. It would be nicely appreciated if you could stop attempting to read between the lines and find me digging at XJ.. If I misunderstood the tone of your comment, I will go ahead and apologize..

With that said, while we're being honest, I find it pretty bold that you feel XJ has ALWAYS rebounded and state it in a manner such that you seem to feel that XJ (or any other airline for that matter) is untouchable.. You are surely not.. I promise..

Look at all the airlines that have come and gone.. TWA, Pan Am, Eastern, Piedmont, the list goes on and on.. I remember when Eastern was going down the tubes and the EAL guys reached out to their Delta brothers only to be shunned by them.. Then when Delta went through their issues many of the Delta guys looked to former EAL pilots for support.. Do you think they got the support they were looking for?

What I'm saying is.. ALL of these airlines weathered storms.. ALL of them saw "rougher times." ALL of them rebounded against "greater threats" at one point in time or another.. NONE of them are still around..
 
matt152 said:
I think that once the list is integrated, if you are a junior Colgan FO, you should expect to stay an FO for a long time. Especially if the Saabs are getting retired in the next several years.

What's the average DOH of a Pinnacle or Mesaba FO?
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Average isn't a real good tape measure. I think I've done this once or twice before on the forum but a good breakdown from our eyes is as such:
Top half of list at Pinnacle: 6 years Mesaba: 11 years
Bottom half at Pinnacle: 5 years Mesaba: 3 years (FO's mostly at the 3-4 year mark)
I did those 6 months ago so you'll probably wanna add .5 or 1.0 years depending on my rounding. Yes I understand there are some 2-3 month lapses on the Pinnacle list, and in some rare cases longer like 6 months, so that compounds the problem. Bottom

Pinnacle has had a pretty steady hiring process with guys dropping off because (let's face it) it's hell to work there, while Mesaba's has always been accordion style, and those who can remain through the downgrades/furloughs, don't really want to leave because it's a good place to work.
 
Tram said:
Again, I wasn't trying to start anything.. It would be nicely appreciated if you could stop attempting to read between the lines and find me digging at XJ.. If I misunderstood the tone of your comment, I will go ahead and apologize..

With that said, while we're being honest, I find it pretty bold that you feel XJ has ALWAYS rebounded and state it in a manner such that you seem to feel that XJ (or any other airline for that matter) is untouchable.. You are surely not.. I promise..

Look at all the airlines that have come and gone.. TWA, Pan Am, Eastern, Piedmont, the list goes on and on.. I remember when Eastern was going down the tubes and the EAL guys reached out to their Delta brothers only to be shunned by them.. Then when Delta went through their issues many of the Delta guys looked to former EAL pilots for support.. Do you think they got the support they were looking for?

What I'm saying is.. ALL of these airlines weathered storms.. ALL of them saw "rougher times." ALL of them rebounded against "greater threats" at one point in time or another.. NONE of them are still around..
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Ah, talk about reading in between the lines. Fine. Whatever you said is good.

As a side note, you're logic is an interesting puzzle in it's own regard, because if all airlines (as you said) are as susceptible to falling apart then joining up with Pinnacle and Colgan really doesn't matter does it. Perhaps the lesson of economics you took to heart most is, "on a long enough time line everyone dies." I'm a bit more of an optimist, while your airline is shiny and new, ours is a crusty 60 something years old, so perhaps my views are tainted.

Honestly I think some of our reoccurring disagreements are tonal in nature, it'd probably be easier to just talk face to face and we'd be able to stop each other before you or I started finding waldo inside our posts.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Ah, talk about reading in between the lines. Fine. Whatever you said is good.
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Touche'.. Maybe *I* was reading between the lines.. It could happen.. Lately, every post I leave here seems to be attacked from multiple directions, so I am a bit on the defensive I guess.. ;) My demeanor is not near as "up yours" in person as it seems to come off on this board.. I have, just like all of us, an opinion and I don't mind sharing it.. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.. I'm I'm right, I'm right.. Someone will let me know and I don't mind saying I was wrong..

As a side note, you're logic is an interesting puzzle in it's own regard, because if all airlines (as you said) are as susceptible to falling apart then joining up with Pinnacle and Colgan really doesn't matter does it. Perhaps the lesson of economics you took to heart most is, "on a long enough time line everyone dies." I'm a bit more of an optimist, while your airline is shiny and new, ours is a crusty 60 something years old, so perhaps my views are tainted.
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So your airline is due for death then.. :) 60 years old? Well past it's prime.. :D (All humor here..)

Honestly I think some of our reoccurring disagreements are tonal in nature, it'd probably be easier to just talk face to face and we'd be able to stop each other before you or I started finding waldo inside our posts.
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I think you're right.. I think face to face goes much better.. No inflection on the internet and a simple statement can be taken to mean quite different than what it's intent was..

Are you MEM based?
 
What if an XJ Saab CA is displaced and chooses Saab FO? Does he/she go to the new rate, or stay grandfathered? Or, what if the same CA is involuntarily displaced, and then requals as Saab CA a few months later?
 
Tram said:
If the majority of the 9E and XJ guys vote yes, every single 9L pilot could vote no and it would still pass..
If all 9L and XJ guys vote no, every 9E pilot could vote yes and it wouldn't pass..
If all 9L and 9E pilots vote yes, all XJ guys could vote no.. It'll still pass..
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I was told by a union guy that each pilot group would have to individually pass it for the contract to go through... maybe Seggy can clarify.
 
sopdan said:
I was told by a union guy that each pilot group would have to individually pass it for the contract to go through... maybe Seggy can clarify.
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Well, the individual MEC's have to vote to pass it to the pilots, I know that much.. The rest - is well above my pay grade..

I think, and this is just one mans opinion, but from what I've seen.. We'd be nuts (all of us we, not 9E we) not to pass it..
 
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