9L, 9E, XJ JCBA executive summary

Seggy said:
When the XJ FO upgrades to the Saab he will be at the new 'regular rate'. They only stay at that 'grandfather rate' until they move out of their seat.
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Yea, so in the end youll only have a small number of people who are at a different rate than their peers. If your a Saab CA now at either CJC or XJ, I should hope in 5 years you have moved on, or you have moved onto a better paying aircraft.
 
Also just confirmed its 3 junior man refusals, and 3 extension refusals per year. They are considered seperate.
 
so i see the freezes etc. Does this mean that people can move up and down the ladder? say q capt back to saab capt?
 
dingo222 said:
so i see the freezes etc. Does this mean that people can move up and down the ladder? say q capt back to saab capt?
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Yep... but like you said there are seat locks... I would think these are here for a realignment of resources... IE if a EWR Q pilot wanted to bid back to LGA SF3 at some point after integration this would be possible.
 
Avalon781ML said:
Yep... but like you said there are seat locks... I would think these are here for a realignment of resources... IE if a EWR Q pilot wanted to bid back to LGA SF3 at some point after integration this would be possible.
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Which is good. 9L management was refusing to let Q CAs go back to SF3 CA. If you have the seniority to hold a position, you should be able to bid it, no matter what your current seat.
 
Am I reading it correctly that the small (outstation) bases not getting the min 4 hour day? Whats the reasoning behind that?
 
I can't say that I am very happy about the split payscale on the SAAB for F/Os, and I will really not be happy if the Mesaba furlough pilots that have a junior DOH than mine get "grandfathered" on this payscale. I want to know why the same pot of money couldn't have been split between both pilot groups flying the SAAB. I hate to sound negative, but had this taken place there was a good likelihood that a resounding "NO" vote would have come from the Mesaba pilots because they would be concessionary contract-MINUS. So, there has to be some level of compromise made in this process and not everyone is going to be happy with every aspect of the contract. Management is gambling that the "soft money" expense is far more cost-effective then an across the board raise that seemed to be the expectation of may Colgan pilots. I also think that the assumption was that Colgan Air pilots would have come under the umbrella of Mesaba's current contract after integration, so I again ask the question of how this contract is such a windfall compared to Mesaba's concessionary contract. Going to be a tough sell, I still need to read the details and make an informed decision, but I am not happy with this split payscale.
 
Am I reading it correctly that the small (outstation) bases not getting the min 4 hour day? Whats the reasoning behind that?
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That issue along with the Saab rates was one of the last things to fall from ourside. The outstation aircraft/crew utilization is poor (for example...SYR-BOS-SYR for your whole day), so it would be very expensive to bring the outstation bases up to four hours min day. With the staffing requirements this contract drives, I would expect the outstations to close, the pilots get hub based and utilization per day to be above four hours.
 
BE19Pilot said:
I can't say that I am very happy about the split payscale on the SAAB for F/Os, and I will really not be happy if the Mesaba furlough pilots that have a junior DOH than mine get "grandfathered" on this payscale. I want to know why the same pot of money couldn't have been split between both pilot groups flying the SAAB. I hate to sound negative, but had this taken place there was a good likelihood that a resounding "NO" vote would have come from the Mesaba pilots because they would be concessionary contract-MINUS. So, there has to be some level of compromise made in this process and not everyone is going to be happy with every aspect of the contract. Management is gambling that the "soft money" expense is far more cost-effective then an across the board raise that seemed to be the expectation of may Colgan pilots. I also think that the assumption was that Colgan Air pilots would have come under the umbrella of Mesaba's current contract after integration, so I again ask the question of how this contract is such a windfall compared to Mesaba's concessionary contract. Going to be a tough sell, I still need to read the details and make an informed decision, but I am not happy with this split payscale.
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As I said previosuly, these Saab payrates, which were one of the last things to fall the way they did, are MORE than we could have expected if we were negotiating our own contract.

I don't have the numbers on me, they will be presented at the roadshow, but this contract is more valuable for the CJC Pilots than if we were only brought up to the Mesaba contract.
 
Seggy said:
As I said previosuly, these Saab payrates, which were one of the last things to fall the way they did, are MORE than we could have expected if we were negotiating our own contract.

I don't have the numbers on me, they will be presented at the roadshow, but this contract is more valuable for the CJC Pilots than if we were only brought up to the Mesaba contract.
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You are probably correct, but hard numbers...i.e., pay-scale is something people can get their arms around and see. So, it is a bit of an emotional issue where pay is concerned and a lot of us have been dealing with this emaciated pay-scale for some time now. And, for some the soft-money issue isn't as big a deal as a substantial pay-raise is (put me in that category). Frankly, I have not been extended enough or JRM'd to the point where I am concerned about it. However, we do need some clarity and firm work-rules for what the company can and cannot do over the life of the contract. I have read a lot of discussion here about the palatability of this split pay-scale being a function of one's ability to move to other equipment across certificates. Will this be a possibility?
 
BE19Pilot said:
I can't say that I am very happy about the split payscale on the SAAB for F/Os, and I will really not be happy if the Mesaba furlough pilots that have a junior DOH than mine get "grandfathered" on this payscale. I want to know why the same pot of money couldn't have been split between both pilot groups flying the SAAB. I hate to sound negative, but had this taken place there was a good likelihood that a resounding "NO" vote would have come from the Mesaba pilots because they would be concessionary contract-MINUS. So, there has to be some level of compromise made in this process and not everyone is going to be happy with every aspect of the contract. Management is gambling that the "soft money" expense is far more cost-effective then an across the board raise that seemed to be the expectation of may Colgan pilots. I also think that the assumption was that Colgan Air pilots would have come under the umbrella of Mesaba's current contract after integration, so I again ask the question of how this contract is such a windfall compared to Mesaba's concessionary contract. Going to be a tough sell, I still need to read the details and make an informed decision, but I am not happy with this split payscale.
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You have to remember that these split pay scales arent going to affect many people. You and I for example, will hopefully see upgrade within the next 12 months. We will then be put into the new rates. Any other Mesaba guys that are upgrading into the Saab will be paid at the same rate as us. The only guys who are going to feel like they are getting a bit of a shaft, are those guys who are currently CAs on the Saab at Colgan, and plan to stay there for a few more years. After looking at the rates on some of the other aircraft, I cant see any reason to stick around on the Saab unless you just like the base.

I think people are making too big of a deal out of the seperated pay scales, when its a very small group that will be affected, for a short period of time.

As for the 4 hour min day, those out stations typically fly more than 4 hours a day anyway. In fact those guys have some of highest crediting schedules.

Im hoping that they have some other language regarding hubs. What if UAL says "hey, can you guys operate 4 Qs out of Denver?" Then Mesaba staffs it with under 25 pilots and we are screwed out of a 4hr day, even though its a hub. Is a reserve day 4 hours of pay for the out stations? What about if I am TDY'd to PQI for a week? Is it my home base that causes me to earn my 4 hours, or the base I am working in? This is where the language will come into play.
 
BE19Pilot said:
I have read a lot of discussion here about the palatability of this split pay-scale being a function of one's ability to move to other equipment across certificates. Will this be a possibility?
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section 24 summary says:

•Pilots have full, unrestricted access to all positions at all Airlines for Vacancies and Reductions
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BE19Pilot said:
I have read a lot of discussion here about the palatability of this split pay-scale being a function of one's ability to move to other equipment across certificates. Will this be a possibility?
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I think that once the list is integrated, if you are a junior Colgan FO, you should expect to stay an FO for a long time. Especially if the Saabs are getting retired in the next several years.

What's the average DOH of a Pinnacle or Mesaba FO?
 
v1valarob said:
section 24 summary says:
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Thanks, Rob... Amazing that the company went for that, because there are a lot of us that have been in the same equipment for at least 2 years+ and would welcome the change/upgrade/domicile change(s). How senior is the -900 in ATL? LOL
 
BE19Pilot said:
Thanks, Rob... Amazing that the company went for that, because there are a lot of us that have been in the same equipment for at least 2 years+ and would welcome the change/upgrade/domicile change(s). How senior is the -900 in ATL? LOL
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CRJ9 FO makes as much as a current CJC SF3 CA.
 
Seggy said:
That issue along with the Saab rates was one of the last things to fall from ourside. The outstation aircraft/crew utilization is poor (for example...SYR-BOS-SYR for your whole day), so it would be very expensive to bring the outstation bases up to four hours min day. With the staffing requirements this contract drives, I would expect the outstations to close, the pilots get hub based and utilization per day to be above four hours.
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Such as Boston?
 
v1valarob said:
As for the 4 hour min day, those out stations typically fly more than 4 hours a day anyway. In fact those guys have some of highest crediting schedules.
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Some of them, ie PQI, BHB. Check out the Albany lines, nothing to write home about, many day trips are one round trip to Boston, credit 2:40 for the day. Also know for a fact that CRW has some trips with one round trip to DCA (certainly not 4 hours worth), only good thing about down there is you have an opportunity to do IAD flying as well.
 
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