9L, 9E, XJ JCBA executive summary
- Thread starter sherpa
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FLflyer
Well-Known Member
Well it still does NOT compare to our deal (XJT) which was done in 2004, and AFTER we took concessions 2 years ago!
What a joke, so much for raising the bar...
It's embarrassing watching all you guys patting each other on the back for another crappy deal. We get it, Colgan sucked really bad, but this huge company (Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan) could do much better.
The Juice
Well-Known Member
XJT will always be so much more awesome that we could ever dream, that is obvious. Maybe you can blow us all away when you begin JCBA with your new management here soon and we will see if they are as labor friendly as the management that sold you off.
How dare you make me get nasty like this during the holiday season....
That just proves my other point... Why are the Q's getting such a raw deal then too?? Mesaba minus is not building for the future.
Where ARE they going? It seems to me that the bar has been lowered in part. Why should one group finance another? If we are truly all in this together then we should be getting paid like it. Especially since the -200s are most certainly not the way of the future. They are on the way out just as much as the saabs so why not just lower what we are getting them and give it to the Q? Afterall it is the only plane we actually are receiving more of and have orders for?? There is a lot of sarcasim in there but the fundamentals are still the same. One group should not be paid less just to finance another group. One equipment should be the same across the board. No one should be making less than they were and no one should be making more than another for the same work.
Thank you!! This contract has some wins in it but not everything. a 14 hour reserve shift is 2 hours more than we have been getting at colgan. A 4 hour min day for everyone except usairways colgan guys is not a win, it's smoke and mirrors. It's a way to have the company see what they can get away with. DO NOT ALLOW IT!!!!
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
What parts dont compare? And Im asking seriously. When it comes to RJ rates, I dont even know what the industry average is. I fly a Saab, I know what those wages are.
And yet you are ok with getting lower than industry average on it... Seriously??? Industry average is just between colgan and mesaba, so anything less than them is less!
L-16B
Well-Known Member
The Juice
Well-Known Member
No. If a 4th year Colgan CA is paid 44.50 an hour and a MSA Colgan CA is paid $52.82 and hour than the "industry average" is $48.66. The new Colgan rate of $51.98 is above the previous average so now the new average has been raised.
The Juice
Well-Known Member
This is the most insane thing I have heard so far today. To say that Colgan will continue the trend of "miserable" work rules is insane. You obviously have not read any of the summary even though you claim to have. Wake up, we actually have work rules with this TA. And as far as miserable pay, I am looking at a $7.50 hour raise at DOS. To put that in real terms, that is my car payment and insurance and even some extra money for gas. And this does not even factor in the soft money included in those "miserable" work rules you speak of.
Nice job spinning the numbers by saying that PCL FO's are getting up to 38% increases, the average is 21.5% compared to Colgan Q FO's with an average of 20%. Consider the fact that their 2nd year pay is less than a Colgan Saab FO a 21.5% is due and justified.
It is crazy how you feel the Saab CA at CJC is being insulted by making less than MSA CA's. Remember that those MSA CA's whose rates you lust after are going to be displaced or have the "luck" of being one of the few sent to LGA. I'll take my $51.98 and be home based rather than $52.82 and not knowing what my base of aircraft status is.
...Making the new average 52.40 which puts the Colgan guys below industry average... It's pretty simple. Now when a 3rd year mesaba fo gets 34.13 and 3rd year colgan fo gets 29.10, that puts the average at 31.61 and colgan is now below average...
Well I am only getting a .50 cent increase so im not going to be able to do much with that. And as for miserable.. it might have been a little overstated but it certainly isn't as good as the other two groups have gotten. We are still below industry standard across the board at colgan while mesaba and pinnacle are at or above industry average. And i didn't spin anything, it says right there on the summary that pinnacle fo's get up to a 38% increase plus the signing bonus.
You can "spin" it how you want but that displacement is going to happen regardless. In fact you're potential displacement is better then a potential downgrade or furlough that you would have seen if not for PNCL's relationship with airways. How you feel you deserve more money than a colgan guy for doing the exact same work is sad really.
If southwest told airtran that they were going to get a B payscale for their 737's, no one would believe it. It would be an aweful thing. Yet you think it's ok here?
Like Joe said, we got a little bit better health insurance, 75% deadhead pay, and a few other things at XJ, nothing more. Are we crying, not yet anyway. Like someone else said, it's all a moot point, all our saab guys are probably gonna get displaced to the east coast anyway. Most likely, those senior guys are gonna move to the 900, and the junior guys on the 900 are gonna head out to the east coast. So really, they are gonna get the regular saab rates, not the grandfathered mesaba rates.
The Juice
Well-Known Member
Using your loose logic I could argue that Colgan raised the bar for Saab aircraft rates by raising the average for the entire country of 121 Saab operators by over 10% for Saab Captains.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
You can't use numbers that are not in effect to compute and industry average. In 4 years the Q400 rate makes the first years Q400 rate look silly. Does that mean I am taking less now? Your new pay rate was based upon what your pay rate was, not what other will be
But i guess you would rather have the extra few bucks an hr, and give back something like min day pay, or some other form of work rules/soft money right?
I'll also say raising the bar is great, but you can't put yourself in a situation where you price yourself out of the market. It's a delicate balance. The pay rates may not be what you were looking for, but look at the overall value of the contract. It's big, and it is much better than we would have gotten on our own.
I'm gonna say, calm down untill you see the final language, go to the road shows, and relax a bit. Your QOL is going to get much, much better.
But i guess you would rather have the extra few bucks an hr, and give back something like min day pay, or some other form of work rules/soft money right?
I'll also say raising the bar is great, but you can't put yourself in a situation where you price yourself out of the market. It's a delicate balance. The pay rates may not be what you were looking for, but look at the overall value of the contract. It's big, and it is much better than we would have gotten on our own.
I'm gonna say, calm down untill you see the final language, go to the road shows, and relax a bit. Your QOL is going to get much, much better.
Which means it's less than they were getting eventually. That is a loss. XJ should be upset about this as well. The money they would have seen with an upgrade is gone. FO's at all 3 companies are most likely to upgrade into a saab. Thats where the junior positions are going to be.
The Juice
Well-Known Member
I am a Colgan Saab CA and I am guessing that you are a 2nd year Colgan Saab FO based on your .50 cent an hour comment. If you really think it is bad now you should have seen it years before you started. In fairness if you are a 2nd year FO you came here while we were already in negotiations for our own contract with a union on property and then less than 2 years later we were able to take advantage of the benefits of solid contracts like that of MSA and piggy back them on items we would have never gotten on our own, never!
I am glad that the MSA pilots are not as petty as some and begin to blame to Colgan pilots for taking away gains that they would have received without Colgan in the mix.
Yes you can, since that will be the new average we will be below industry average. I don't get why that is so hard to understand. And we will be below average at the same company, flying the exact aircraft on the same exact routes, while the guy who just got off the plane in front of you is making above average. And give back min day pay?? Did you not see the provision in the summary that says we don't get min day pay?? What am I giving back?
If you think I am trying to price us out of the market then why not take away money from the CRJ's and give it to the saab to make it a level playing field? Oh wait, that's right, we aren't allowed to touch the hallowed CRJ pilots...
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
And when they finally do away with all of these out stations, you will get min day pay out of Boston.
For you XJ guys, how many Saab CAs do you currently have? What is the most junior DOH on the Saab CA?
