9E Headquarters to move to Minnesota

higney85 said:
Y'all are aware that the failure rate has remained at roughly 4% with a spread of 3% to 7% right? Ironically, the PC failure rate and ATP failure rate are very similar.

I am not defending anybody, but will say that some of the things folks say they "failed" for are NOT the reasons why the examiner wrote the pink slip. Its rarely "1 thing". You don't hear folks say "I passed due to this". If it's not in a book you have been given or training received, you can't expect someone to know it. I don't know how many rivets are in a -200, but I would expect someone to know the "normal" voltage of a battery AND the min voltage to start the APU. Why? It's in the CFM and SYS manual AND relates to line ops. It's also trained in ground, GFS, and sim training. Joe knew it, and had an EICAS page to look at to refresh his memory (he had it immediately from memory). If you can't change a situation from the cockpit or understand the problem from an EICAS message there is a QRH enroute or a call to mx at the gate.

If someone fails something, there probably was a lack of training somewhere, but there is also the few who don't study and/or ask for help on a certain piece of info or procedure. I have had orals and check rides with many named into derogatory "labels". I was tested on a range of all info I knew from the books given. Some guys want to walk into "bonus point" territory and I don't know why. It's a fun challenge, but every time it was known to see how far I knew things, and have seen other orals in the same manner with guys who are equally sharp and well prepared.

If you need to know that the ext power connector is in junction box XX, you need to be a engineer and not fly the A/C. If you know that 400HZ/115V power will show the avail light on the overhead panel and that the aircraft uses that to power the aircraft through TRU's with a 100amp max each, you will be fine.
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Wait, so you did 425 FO ATP's and or types in August of 2012 (4%)? WOW! I had no IDEA the downtown offices were that efficient.

17 FO's who were up for their ATP and or PIC type in August failed, at least that's what 3 of the trainers couldn't stop chuckling about in the halls. A number (which I took for fact) that was reiterated during one pilots retraining. Are those all lies and fabrications? How are you getting that number:
higney85 said:
the failure rate has remained at roughly 4% with a spread of 3% to 7%
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higney85 said:
Y'all are aware that the failure rate has remained at roughly 4% with a spread of 3% to 7% right? Ironically, the PC failure rate and ATP failure rate are very similar.
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That proves my point. Failure rates should be in the .05% to 1.5% range.

I am not defending anybody, but will say that some of the things folks say they "failed" for are NOT the reasons why the examiner wrote the pink slip. Its rarely "1 thing". You don't hear folks say "I passed due to this".
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Very true.

Some guys want to walk into "bonus point" territory and I don't know why. It's a fun challenge, but every time it was known to see how far I knew things, and have seen other orals in the same manner with guys who are equally sharp and well prepared.
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When you go into the 'bonus territory' as you say doesn't that lead to a lack of standardization? A lot of airlines list the questions an applicant can be held liable for during an oral.

I get the fact that done Check Airman want to teach, that is great, but don't hold it against an applicant if they don't know. Or solve the problem completely and have a set standard of questions one can be held liable for.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Wait, so you did 425 FO ATP's and or types in August of 2012 (4%)? WOW! I had no IDEA the downtown offices were that efficient.

17 FO's who were up for their ATP and or PIC type in August failed, at least that's what 3 of the trainers couldn't stop chuckling about in the halls. A number (which I took for fact) that was reiterated during one pilots retraining. Are those all lies and fabrications? How are you getting that number:
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Nope. Going by stats that were given.
 
Seggy said:
That proves my point. Failure rates should be in the .05% to 1.5% range.



Very true.



When you go into the 'bonus territory' as you say doesn't that lead to a lack of standardization? I get the fact that done Check Airman want to teach, that is great, but don't hold it against an applicant if they don't know.
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Have you been through any training under "pinnacle"?

No, it's a teaching point only. Part of learning something every time you go to the school house. I doubt anyone truly asked about "rivets", its all the game of telephone if that was asked since I can't find that anywhere (inclusive of bombardier's mx manuals).

And where does .5-1.5% exist? Is it a known number? FAA mandat? I'm not an APD, but some are claiming 20% failures on rides and 50% on orals... If a guy doesn't pass, it's because they don't know/can't perform the task. I'm not going to start debating pass/fail, but I will point out the stats since folks seem to think that going the schoolhouse is under gunpoint. In the end it does come back to the training that was given and the instructor, but the failures are being put out there like guys are wanting the pilots being tested to know the plane like a designer, which isn't correct. Fly it standard, know how it works overall, and how to deal with issues is a rather standard order.
 
higney85 said:
Have you been through any training under "pinnacle"?
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Nope.

But, I have talked to pilots who have failed under the legacy Pinnacle training and it raised some eyebrows. Furthermore, when the PTRB was being set up under the contract, I remember vividly issues with the legacy Pinnacle supposed ALPA Rep handling the failures.

It is well know about the NMFC and the games that have been played in the training department. We can't pretend they don't exist.

And where does .5-1.5% exist? Is it a known number? FAA mandate.
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It is an ALPA number.
 
Seggy said:
It is well know about the NMFC and the games that have been played in the training department. We can't pretend they don't exist.
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Yes we can. Before you stop me, yes we can. You see if it is denied often enough people will move onto other things and the training department will get saved the embarrassment meanwhile it will be fixed by the new guys and hopefully everyone will just forget their friends on the street or with multiple failures. The guys we bring back will be so thankful and the ones expunged they'll want to keep it quiet because everyone knows how pilots feel about guys with one never mind multiple failures on their records. What was it someone on the interwebs said often and early every time someone would bring up what a side show Hunter and the insane clown posse of merger reps were, "it's all politics" or something similar.
 
Having gone through both, I say keep the XJ program. The level of actual LEARNING and not just death by powerpoint is a night vs. day difference. The only material you have to dig for are the workbook problems at night, everything else is kept very standard and simple. The biggest thing that amazed me was that there was NO FOM questions on the oral, just BASIC system and limitation questions. Things that you needed to know to fly the plane, the way an oral should be. For the walk around slides, the examiner wanted to hear "go, no go", thats it. Not the specific names of every panel/probe that covers the airplane.

As for the sims, the entire process was relaxed and low stress. I remember walking into my checkride with absolutely no stress at all, I have never had that in all 5.5 years at the company. The entire ride was efficient and straight forward with no engine fires off Cat II
go-arounds.

The attitude and feel atound the training center just seemed different. The instructors look to you as their customer. If you are performing badly and not a complete slacker, then the problem is that they are not teaching well enough. They expect you to exceed and go more than the extra mile to make it happen.

I was dreading the two months in MSP I had for training, it honestly turned out to be an absolute enjoyable experience. There was just a different atmosphere around the building than what I had been used to. And my car didnt get broken into once...bonus!!
 
Jesus. Bury the freaking hatchet already. This all still sounds like "We're Mesaba/Pinnacle and we're better than the other guy. " Honestly, who cares. It's all one company now, friggin ACT like it. The divisiveness that I saw daily was one of the things that burned me out on pretty much everything. Who cares if a legacy Pinnacle guy did this or that or a Mesaba guy would have let that slide. Work together. It's been two friggin years or more sine the MECs "merged" and it's still like two different airlines. I swear, it's ALMOST as bad as Airways.....
 
kellwolf said:
Jesus. Bury the freaking hatchet already. This all still sounds like "We're Mesaba/Pinnacle and we're better than the other guy. " Honestly, who cares. It's all one company now, friggin ACT like it. The divisiveness that I saw daily was one of the things that burned me out on pretty much everything. Who cares if a legacy Pinnacle guy did this or that or a Mesaba guy would have let that slide. Work together. It's been two friggin years or more sine the MECs "merged" and it's still like two different airlines. I swear, it's ALMOST as bad as Airways.....
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The funny party is, they will never see how stupid it is, until they get out... Then its like, mum... what? Over
 
kellwolf said:
Jesus. Bury the freaking hatchet already. This all still sounds like "We're Mesaba/Pinnacle and we're better than the other guy. " Honestly, who cares. It's all one company now, friggin ACT like it. The divisiveness that I saw daily was one of the things that burned me out on pretty much everything. Who cares if a legacy Pinnacle guy did this or that or a Mesaba guy would have let that slide. Work together. It's been two friggin years or more sine the MECs "merged" and it's still like two different airlines. I swear, it's ALMOST as bad as Airways.....
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No kidding.

Jumpseated on a 9E -900 last week and made the mistake of asking how things were at Pinnacle.

Quickly got told that they were a Mesaba crew.

Whatever...
 
I've noticed from Pinnacle guys past and present that there's a feeling Mesaba and Pinnacle need to merge up. There's this third company out there. Oh don't roll your eyes just yet. At first in the training center I said "eek, lot of tension out there," but having being out there on the line I honestly would be surprised if any Colgan guy walks into the crew room, ever. You better believe there's a lot of divisiveness, and Pinnacle is leading the charge.

I got told in the crew room the other day that the Colgan guys should all be fired from the company because they ran the place into the ground and ALPA should lead the charge. Not only that but if Colgan had only agreed to DOH we'd all be fine. I understand why some Pinnacle people pilots stay out of their own crew room, it's a mad house. Plenty of empty gates to sit at. Everyone at JFK needs an enema in my opinion, and a good long massage.

This company and it's pilots will take years to merge and to feel together, but by then we'll all be gone or closed down. In the meantime I don't mind everyone throwing stones, it gets the stress out, and so far in the cockpit I've not had any safety of flight issues due to angry pilots. So relieve stress however you have to, just as long as it isn't in the cockpit. However, let's not get too high and mighty about Mesaba guys not playing along with the band, especially while I watch the band beating up the brass section from junior varsity.

P.S. It's a lot easier to start calling yourself Pinnacle when you get de-fenced because you aren't always logging into the myMesaba site, the mesaba crew web, and going into the Mesaba crew rooms. This isn't red book green book thing, this is a botched merger and it has consequences. Kind of like treating 400 or so of your own pilots like pariahs.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I've noticed from Pinnacle guys past and present that there's a feeling Mesaba and Pinnacle need to merge up. There's this third company out there. Oh don't roll your eyes just yet. At first in the training center I said "eek, lot of tension out there," but having being out there on the line I honestly would be surprised if any Colgan guy walks into the crew room, ever. You better believe there's a lot of divisiveness, and Pinnacle is leading the charge.

I got told in the crew room the other day that the Colgan guys should all be fired from the company because they ran the place into the ground and ALPA should lead the charge. Not only that but if Colgan had only agreed to DOH we'd all be fine. I understand why some Pinnacle people pilots stay out of their own crew room, it's a mad house. Plenty of empty gates to sit at. Everyone at JFK needs an enema in my opinion, and a good long massage.

This company and it's pilots will take years to merge and to feel together, but by then we'll all be gone or closed down. In the meantime I don't mind everyone throwing stones, it gets the stress out, and so far in the cockpit I've not had any safety of flight issues due to angry pilots. So relieve stress however you have to, just as long as it isn't in the cockpit. However, let's not get too high and mighty about Mesaba guys not playing along with the band, especially while I watch the band beating up the brass section from junior varsity.

P.S. It's a lot easier to start calling yourself Pinnacle when you get de-fenced because you aren't always logging into the myMesaba site, the mesaba crew web, and going into the Mesaba crew rooms. This isn't red book green book thing, this is a botched merger and it has consequences. Kind of like treating 400 or so of your own pilots like pariahs.
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So what if I'm former Mesaba and Colgan? Do I get double the stare down and crap talking to? Another reason to avoid the JFK crew room once I get up there. Check my vfile, checkin and spend my time at dunkin donuts. And no, not the dunkin donuts right next to the crew room, the one in terminal 4, maybe even go the one in the Jetblue terminal. If the first question I get asked by a new captain when I walk into the cockpit is "so are you former Mesaba or Colgan?", I already know how the rest of the trip is going to go and I have no problems excusing myself from the trip.
 
Having been based in JFK almost the whole time, I'd say it's not even like that. At least, it wasn't when I left. MEM and DTW were a different matter. And it doesn't matter if you're XJ, 9L, 9E, Express I or whoever. I'm saying to everyone GROW UP and get over it. It's not a Pinnacle or a Mesaba crew room. It's a crew room. The only people I've heard say things like that about the former Colgan guys were radical senior guys that got screwed over. By now, most of the FOs that got hosed by Block (not the Colgan pilots) are either a) gone or b) over it. It's a moot point since even the Colgan guys awarded senior spots ahead of them are gonna be displaced to FO in a year or two anyway.

Management could have taken the lead on everyone getting along. They didn't. The UNION could have taken the lead as well. They also didn't. It's up to the line pilots to get over themselves and work together. I don't see how someone saying "Well, we're moving back to MSP and we're back to mostly -900s. Let's just change the name back to Mesaba and go back to how things used to be" is any worse than "The Colgan guys should all be furloughed." Both statements do nothing but drive a wedge into a pilot group that has been beaten and fractured to the point I'm surprised there hasn't been a fist fight or five in the flight deck. I'm sure management LOVES it. It's kind of amazing. I never flew with a Mesaba or a Colgan FO. I only flew with guys at Pinnacle...
 
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