9E Headquarters to move to Minnesota

The meetings have been going on all month and comprise ALL instructors/check airmen/APD's under the pinnacle banner (both Mesaba/pinnacle groups) to get everyone on one page both on coming changes and training methods going forward. It's not a one-sided affair if that's what you were implying.

Yeah, that is all touchy feely, but we all know where the problems in training are coming from...the legacy Pinnacle side.

It is disgusting the games that have been allowed to be played with careers for so long on the legacy Pinnacle side. Once again, shame on the union for allowing this.
 
Well there are now line check airmen complaining that the XJ way is "everyone passes". According to Restifo. So our guys feel like you should have the fear of failure motivating you to do well.
 
The meetings have been going on all month and comprise ALL instructors/check airmen/APD's under the pinnacle banner (both Mesaba/pinnacle groups) to get everyone on one page both on coming changes and training methods going forward. It's not a one-sided affair if that's what you were implying.
I was implying something, I thought I was being direct? If the meeting up in MSP was misrepresented by me as a second hand source (and please everyone understand I don't get into those meetings) please feel free to correct me. I understand that meetings go on, I understand there are some different procedures that the Mesaba guys are bringing in where everybody talks to each other quarterly, I understand there are a few things the Pinnacle guys do that are going to be brought in, but that wasn't what I'm talking about. (side note: there are some things I'd love to have seen us do on the fenced side for years) I'm fairly confident every reader can understand your point that the two operations will merge and we will bring in things from both sides. What I am talking about, what the meeting last week was about, is letting everyone know the unexplainable (apparently not a word) high fail rate and strangely diverse criteria pilots are being held to is a problem, one which must be fixed going forward.

Feel free to correct me that there will be an attitude change and a criteria change going forward, because that's what some instructors are happily championing.
 
Yeah, that is all touchy feely, but we all know where the problems in training are coming from...the legacy Pinnacle side.
It is disgusting the games that have been allowed to be played with careers for so long. Once again, shame on the union for allowing this.
The training department has to fix the training department, the union is actively working to get guys jobs back and failures expunged. I have seen guys smarter and harder studying than me get failed into firing while I made it though unscathed (although fairly angry and nervous) with a nice long vacation. My favorite was one guy on his third oral who knew more about the icing procedures than me and I had already passed the oral.

The legacy Pinnacle side has some good guys, some guys that are going to be great going forward, but they get sucked up into the culture and it'll be different when the culture changes.
Well there are now line check airmen complaining that the XJ way is "everyone passes". According to Restifo. So our guys feel like you should have the fear of failure motivating you to do well.
We do fail people, we do downgrade them, but the XJ guys would say there's no "Best of the Best" mentality here. We believe if you've been hired and you've made it this far you are certainly professional and if you fail it's probably representative more of training than of the pilot, and the 2% of the wackjobs we have here can be pushed to do better given the proper tools and proper training.

The problem with the Pinnacle system that I see, is that when you fail 10% or 20% depending on the month, the 80% left over who made it through get this euphoria of "well I made it and THEY just can't cut it". I've seen guys in my own class say something similar. It's amazing how quickly the ant antenna's point in line with a training culture that was wildly different than when they went through at Mesaba. Yes our fail rate is lower, we don't want a high one, to a lot of us it feels like whipping people into learning and exactly where was that in the FOI we all supposedly took?

I probably should be talking on behalf of all Mesaba people. So take my words with a grain of salt or pinch of something or whatever cliche I'm suppose to say. Although it looks like it in my writing I'm no trying to speak for the entire pilot group
 
The training department has to fix the training department, the union is actively working to get guys jobs back and failures expunged.

To a point, HOWEVER, the union is there to protect the membership. If the training department is adversarial to the membership, actions need to be taken by the union to correct it.
 
To a point, HOWEVER, the union is there to protect the membership. If the training department is adversarial to the membership, actions need to be taken by the union to correct it.
At some point Seggy I just have to say "if you say so". You knew/know more about that than I do in that regard. I wish the changeover would have happened a while ago.
 
At some point Seggy I just have to say "if you say so". You knew/know more about that than I do in that regard. I wish the changeover would have happened a while ago.

You are correct, the change SHOULD come from the training department. Usually that doesn't happen though.

We were having issues at CJC a few years ago. Pilots were calling reps asking 'I have a check ride with so and so, what should I do?' This wasn't happening monthly, nor weekly, but pretty much daily. Turns out the membership had a valid concern and the concern needed to be addressed. Wasn't easy, but the problems were eventually corrected.
 
I will say that JR's mindset does sound better. If there is a failure, the question of "what happened" needs to work into "where did the training department fail/lack along the way to let this happen"?
 
Yeah I'm not saying I "disagree" with the XJ mentality. I will always work my butt off to be ready for training and checking, but to have wild cards like the infamous Pink Slip asking questions outside the scope of a jeopardy event and P or F hinging upon an accurate answer... That needs to change yesterday.

FWIW, I spoke with TW on the phone in December and the Union hasn't found that failure rates are outside of the norm.
 
FWIW, I spoke with TW on the phone in December and the Union hasn't found that failure rates are outside of the norm.

But, it is WHY the people are failing AND the attitude of the examiner. If one fails because of proficiency issues that is one thing, if it is because they don't know the number of screws on the airplane then you have a problem. Also the way the examiner approaches the event is extremely important.
 
FWIW, I spoke with TW on the phone in December and the Union hasn't found that failure rates are outside of the norm.
That's funny, since the union is spending a lot of resources to correct some of the failures. By definition I would say that the failures are out of line if we are actively seeking to correct them. I would politely wonder if TW is just being neutral on subject publicly while directing the union to react how they are reacting in response to some out of line examiners.
 
But, it is WHY the people are failing AND the attitude of the examiner. If one fails because of proficiency issues that is one thing, if it is because they don't know the number of screws on the airplane then you have a problem. Also the way the examiner approaches the event is extremely important.
Look, knowing how many fuses on the tires and if that line in the aft equ bay is a hydraulic line or a fuel line is monumentally important. The plane actually blows up in mid-air if it finds out you don't know these key principals.
 
Look, knowing how many fuses on the tires and if that line in the aft equ bay is a hydraulic line or a fuel line is monumentally important. The plane actually blows up in mid-air if it finds out you don't know these key principals.
Well, thanks a lot, now I'll be studying my eyes out instead of having a nice dinner tonight. :sarcasm:
 
Y'all are aware that the failure rate has remained at roughly 4% with a spread of 3% to 7% right? Ironically, the PC failure rate and ATP failure rate are very similar.

I am not defending anybody, but will say that some of the things folks say they "failed" for are NOT the reasons why the examiner wrote the pink slip. Its rarely "1 thing". You don't hear folks say "I passed due to this". If it's not in a book you have been given or training received, you can't expect someone to know it. I don't know how many rivets are in a -200, but I would expect someone to know the "normal" voltage of a battery AND the min voltage to start the APU. Why? It's in the CFM and SYS manual AND relates to line ops. It's also trained in ground, GFS, and sim training. Joe knew it, and had an EICAS page to look at to refresh his memory (he had it immediately from memory). If you can't change a situation from the cockpit or understand the problem from an EICAS message there is a QRH enroute or a call to mx at the gate.

If someone fails something, there probably was a lack of training somewhere, but there is also the few who don't study and/or ask for help on a certain piece of info or procedure. I have had orals and check rides with many named into derogatory "labels". I was tested on a range of all info I knew from the books given. Some guys want to walk into "bonus point" territory and I don't know why. It's a fun challenge, but every time it was known to see how far I knew things, and have seen other orals in the same manner with guys who are equally sharp and well prepared.

If you need to know that the ext power connector is in junction box XX, you need to be a engineer and not fly the A/C. If you know that 400HZ/115V power will show the avail light on the overhead panel and that the aircraft uses that to power the aircraft through TRU's with a 100amp max each, you will be fine.
 
Well there are now line check airmen complaining that the XJ way is "everyone passes". According to Restifo. So our guys feel like you should have the fear of failure motivating you to do well.
The only people who believe that, are the ones without formal training on teaching. Fear is a huge barrier to learning. Fear motivation has no place in a 121 training environment, and those that use it have no business being an instructor. My big point of contention, is that the requirements to be a 121 training captain don't actually involve knowing how to teach.
 
The only people who believe that, are the ones without formal training on teaching. Fear is a huge barrier to learning. Fear motivation has no place in a 121 training environment, and those that use it have no business being an instructor. My big point of contention, is that the requirements to be a 121 training captain don't actually involve knowing how to teach.

AKA "gun to the head" approach. AQP would be nice. It's amazing how LOFT's breed learning and a PC breeds fear.
 
AKA "gun to the head" approach. AQP would be nice. It's amazing how LOFT's breed learning and a PC breeds fear.
Right, gun to the head pushed performance, but never application or correlation. Performance is fine for sim 2, but, the goal should be to push people out of the house at the correlation level. Anybody can blindly follow a checklist, but it takes correlation to understand the effects and reasons behind each action. Sadly, those that don't understand this use fear, and then try to build understanding by " building the plane"

Very ineffective
 
Right, gun to the head pushed performance, but never application or correlation. Performance is fine for sim 2, but, the goal should be to push people out of the house at the correlation level. Anybody can blindly follow a checklist, but it takes correlation to understand the effects and reasons behind each action. Sadly, those that don't understand this use fear, and then try to build understanding by " building the plane"

Very ineffective

I'm saying "gun to the head" is ineffective. Nobody performs well in fear.

We are on the same page here.
 
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