250 below 10k…

[TUCKnTRUCK]

With the rollout of ADS-B, and precise location information being prevalent in most all airplanes these days-

Is there still a real value to 250kts below 10,000 feet? Statistically most mid airs happen at speeds well below 250knots anyways - and I feel like it’s slowly turning into a rule that may be staying simply because it’s been that way for so long.

I think I’d be happy lifting it for IFR or ATC controlled aircraft- For the ATC’rs in here (unless you’re working Atlanta north or Greenville Spartanburg area for some reason) does 250/10k actually make a difference for you?

I don’t get paid by the minute… so I’d really prefer to go ripping in at max speed until somebody actually needs me to slowdown…. Not just slow down because its’s 10k feet.

 

[bimmerphile]

more VFR aircraft exist down there and there's plenty of airspace where adsb isn't required, 450kt of closure rate with a primary target seems a bad time

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

more VFR aircraft exist down there and there's plenty of airspace where adsb isn't required, 450kt of closure rate with a primary target seems a bad time

I’ll be 100% honest… When I’m doing 250kts on an arrival- I have a pretty damn hard time picking out a 172 beneath us already- and will happily take a turn to avoid it… Going faster isn’t going to change that.

In reality the amount of time below 10k in uncontrolled airspace is pretty small these days in C airports, B airports you’re in the veil a long ways out. D? But more risk I suppose.

 

[///AMG]

I'm personally not convinced that the difference in closure between 250 knots and 350 knots results in a more meaningful ability to "see and avoid" vs a light civil aircraft. We come back home via the straits to whidbey pretty regularly VFR (with FF) and I have one of the best A/A radars in the world, and everything else that would contribute to getting visual of other traffic early. Some days, I'm still only gonna break them out at a mile or two away visually. But to your point, fortunately that radar (or in other aircraft, ADS-B) allows me to adjust course to avoid a collision well before I see the plane with my own eyes.

 

[ahw01]

Don't forget 200 knots below the Class B shelf

 

[///AMG]

Don't forget 200 knots below the Class B shelf

Don't get me started on delaying the final flap retraction to adhere to this rule.........(yes there is another way that is less painful, I know)

 

[NovemberEcho]

man if you think I complain a lot when you slow from 250 to 210 with the guy 5 miles behind you doing 250 still just imagine when you slow to 210 and the guy behind is doing 450 still. 250 definitely helps me out in busy airspace simply because I can’t scan/talk any faster.

But are you really ever below 10k long enough that it would save you anything more than a couple minutes? (Short of low altitude SWAP routes)

 

[///AMG]

man if you think I complain a lot when you slow from 250 to 210 with the guy 5 miles behind you doing 250 still just imagine when you slow to 210 and the guy behind is doing 450 still. 250 definitely helps me out in busy airspace simply because I can’t scan/talk any faster.

But are you really ever below 10k long enough that it would save you anything more than a couple minutes? (Short of low altitude SWAP routes)

This is fair, and when I'm wearing the 121 hat, I can't complain/more money being slower. But military hat ///AMG would like to land ASAP please and thanks

 

[roundout]

But are you really ever below 10k long enough

Only when you guys make it so!!

 

[BobDDuck]

I'd rather take a bird (or drone) to the windshiel at 250 knots than 300.

 

[NovemberEcho]

This is fair, and when I'm wearing the 121 hat, I can't complain/more money being slower. But military hat ///AMG would like to land ASAP please and thanks

I see fighters do more then 250 below 10 all the time when they’re not going into a major airport

 

[NovemberEcho]

Don't forget 200 knots below the Class B shelf

Worst. Rule. Ever.

 

[Flyinthrew]

I see fighters do more then 250 below 10 all the time when they’re not going into a major airport

It's impossible to get a 3 or 4-ship going downhill to stay that slow.

 

[milleR]

Worst. Rule. Ever.

The 60nm/230kt VFR ring around DC is in close running for that spot too.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

man if you think I complain a lot when you slow from 250 to 210 with the guy 5 miles behind you doing 250 still just imagine when you slow to 210 and the guy behind is doing 450 still. 250 definitely helps me out in busy airspace simply because I can’t scan/talk any faster.

But are you really ever below 10k long enough that it would save you anything more than a couple minutes? (Short of low altitude SWAP routes)

There’s plenty of times where we get pegged under 10k, however this I think is born more from frustration- on our normal flights the airspace boundaries leave us high for the straight in to ROC (28) so we either have to slow up at altitude allowing us to dive or drive fast to 11, level off and slow then dive for the airport. Be a lot easier if we could just point the nose down a bit steeper get to 2500 early and let the speed roll off there.

From a lazy perspective, the 10k ft rule creates annoying auto throttle logic. If you give us 11,000 they’ll motor along at whatever profile you’ve got (340kts) which is fine- but if you give us 2500 at 11,000 the airplane will keep going down without the opportunity to slow-

There’s a lot of part of the world that manage to do just fine without 10k/250. I understand that we have orders of magnitude more VFR traffiic however starting to feel like we need it less and less

 

[NovemberEcho]

It's impossible to get a 3 or 4-ship going downhill to stay that slow.

At KPAM other than on final I don’t think I ever saw the fighters going under 350kts anywhere. The few times fighters fly into EWR/TEB they do 250 though (or less as assigned)

 

[mightynimbus]

I'm not doing math this early

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I see fighters do more then 250 below 10 all the time when they’re not going into a major airport

There are a few countries where 250 below 10 isn’t a thing, but they don’t have the traffic saturation or GA flying that we do.

One of the coolest things was going into Bahrain at sunset. They got us down to a couple thousand feet and wanted max forward speed. It’s one of the rare times it actually felt like we were going fast.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Worst. Rule. Ever.

I think that’s going to bite me some day. If we are flying IFR, generally I have no idea what airspace I’m in.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I think that’s going to bite me some day. If we are flying IFR, generally I have no idea what airspace I’m in.

Made better by the fact that the ATC doesn’t have to advise you that you are leaving B when your destination is not the primary bravo airport. Say you’re going into PDK,SRQ, TEB,MMU,FRG etc , they can and will descend you under the floor and not say a peep.

That ATL north corridor rumor has it is a hot zone for 200 below B busts.