2 people safely eject from jet that later crashed during Thunder Over Michigan air show 8/13/2023

[///AMG]

Did the ATAC Kfir pilot at NFL attempt ejection after near flame out in the Wx?

No I don't believe so, sadly. The tail was salvaged, and lives next to the front door of the O'club now. Sad day in naval aviation history

 

[CK]

I wouldn't trust a western seat from that generation of fighter aircraft either. The things those guys working for ATAC and Draken ride on, no chance (though IRC there was a successful Draken A-4 ejection in Nellis a few years back, and maybe an ATAC one out in HI in a similar timeframe). That isn't a slight against their maintainers. I imagine they do a good job, and are paid well to manage some very complex and aging survival systems. But they weren't very good to begin with, out of the box.

ATAC has had five successful ejections that I know about, two Mirages (N601AX and N603AX) and three Hunters (N337AX, N323AX, N338AX). I can remember two of Draken's, an A-4 at Cherry Point and a Mirage at Luke that were successful.

ATAC had a seat fail two years ago. It's an interesting read:

On February 25, 2021, about 1126 central standard time, a Dassault Aviation Mirage F1B,, N601AX, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident at Tyndall Air Force Base (PAM), Panama City, Florida. Both pilots sustained serious injuries. The airplane was operated as a public aircraft under the provisions of Title 49 of the United States Code Sections 40102 and 40125.

During takeoff roll from a runway equipped with a raised aircraft arresting system, the pilot of the turbojet-powered fighter airplane noted no discrepancies upon reaching 100 knots, and before the airplane had reached a raised aircraft arresting system that was present across the runway. The takeoff roll continued and at about 125 knots, which was just after the airplane had crossed the arresting system, the airplane suddenly swerved left. As the airplane neared the left edge of the runway it became airborne.

While airborne and orbiting near the airport, the front- and rear-seat pilots reviewed the applicable emergency procedure checklists, discussed possible system failures, and had pilots from another airplane provide a visual check of the accident airplane’s landing gear. Based on the information provided and the lack of an annunciation of any problem with the nosewheel steering (NWS) system, the pilots attributed the sudden swerve to an issue with the left main landing gear. Although there was some discussion about a hard over of the NWS system, the pilot left it on but planned to turn it off if the airplane veered during the emergency landing.

The pilot burned fuel and returned for landing on the right side of a 200-ft-wide runway. After touchdown the airplane veered to the left, travelled off the runway and onto the grass infield, and the nose landing gear to collapsed. The rear-seat pilot initiated an unannounced ejection, which should have resulted in the front seat also ejecting; however, the rear seat ejected successfully, but the front seat did not. The airplane came to rest and both pilots sustained serious injuries.

A postaccident examination of the NWS system revealed that the annular bearing of the distribution block fractured in overload, with no evidence of preimpact failure or malfunction. The fracture likely resulted from travelling over the raised aircraft arresting system at a high speed, the shock from which traveled from the nose landing gear into the distribution block and resulted in a fracture of the bearing race. Because of the fractured bearing race, the distribution block commanded a left turn consistent with the condition reported by the pilot during takeoff and landing. Although the airplane checklist for failure of the NWS did not include a loss of control during takeoff, it is likely that had the NWS been disconnected upon landing when the nosewheel touched down, directional control would have been possible using differential braking for directional control authority and the airplane likely could have been stopped safely on the runway.

The postaccident examination of the front seat pilot’s ejection seat determined that it did not eject from the airplane because of impact damage to aircraft structure that secured the lower ejection seat gun mount, which resulted in movement of the seat and subsequent separation of a gas line from the rear seat to the front seat, which made ejection of the front seat impossible.

Probable Cause: Nose landing gear contact with a raised aircraft arresting system during takeoff, which damaged components of the nose wheel steering system and resulted in an uncommanded left turn and loss of directional control.

 

[melax]

This is another last second ejection, unfortunately in this case a 5 year old girl was killed.

Horrifying moment Italian airforce display jet plunges from sky

Dramatic footage shows the MB339 fighter plunging from the sky at the Frecce Tricolore display near Turin. The unit is the equivalent of the British Red Arrows.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ejections at air shows shouldn’t be allowed. Go take your plane all the way to an empty field/space. And good luck. That should be an accepted risk for the pilots in air shows.



Essentially, this pilot traded his life for a 5 yr old girl. Yeah, yeah, he didn’t know that. But it’s an air show. There’s gonna be people around when you send your jet hurtling pilot-less to the ground.

 

[MikeD]

It’s tough, because there are both escape systems such as seats, as well as simply bailing out with a parachute. Unfortunately, no matter what the pilot does with the aircraft in an attempt to have it go someplace….assuming it is a controlled ejection/bailout, the minute he ejects or jumps. It’s the same philosophy as shooting a bullet from a gun: you’re ultimately responsible for where that bullet, or airplane, goes.

 

[Wardogg]

Ejections at air shows shouldn’t be allowed. Go take your plane all the way to an empty field/space. And good luck. That should be an accepted risk for the pilots in air shows.



Essentially, this pilot traded his life for a 5 yr old girl. Yeah, yeah, he didn’t know that. But it’s an air show. There’s gonna be people around when you send your jet hurtling pilot-less to the ground.

I was just coming to post about whether or not ejection seats at airshows are ethical.

Usually when we hear about deaths in the crowd the known risk is usually placed on the observer. Should the pilot bear the same risk performing in the airshow? I say yes. Disable them for the show.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_THWypmVaNk

 

[knot4u]

I heard something I never knew about the jets racing at Reno, if the airplane is equipped with ejection seats they have to be deactivated. Interesting.

 

[///AMG]

As a counterpoint to ponder, this was the Italian AF equivalent to our Thunderbirds or Blue Angels. Would you all propose that they safe up their seats during performances as well?

 

[DE727UPS]

No. Odds of a crash like this taking out innocent people driving by is crazy low. It's just a rare accident. Crap happens.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

As a counterpoint to ponder, this was the Italian AF equivalent to our Thunderbirds or Blue Angels. Would you all propose that they safe up their seats during performances as well?

For an air show demonstration/performance with innocent people around? I think my unpopular view is, yes. And after doing so, make it a voluntary choice for those who accept that risk and are still willing to perform.

 

[Wardogg]

As a counterpoint to ponder, this was the Italian AF equivalent to our Thunderbirds or Blue Angels. Would you all propose that they safe up their seats during performances as well?

Yes.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Yes.

So...remind me how many accidents the Blues and Tbirds have had that have taken out innocents again. Something like 0? Yes, let us take away their ability to eject if they are about to crash just in the off chance they will hit a house. Because if they are, they should die too and more kids should grow up without a parent etc. I'd love to see the math on how many lives have been saved by an airshow eject vs how many ground death incidents MAYBE POSSIBLY could have been avoided had the pilot "tried harder".

That 5-year-old girl's death would have been a whole lot easier to deal with if the Italian pilot died as well.

That is so stupid. You guys are wild for that opinion.

 

[SteveC]

The idea that an out-of-control aircraft will magically avoid innocent ground victims if only the pilot "rides her in", baffles me.

 

[zmiller4]

The idea that an out-of-control aircraft will magically avoid innocent ground victims if only the pilot "rides her in", baffles me.

I suspect the logic is that there’s a lower chance of there being an out-of-control aircraft if the pilot knows there’s no eject button available…an enforced conservatism.

I don’t think I buy that, but I sort of get the train of thought.

 

[Lawman]

I suspect the logic is that there’s a lower chance of there being an out-of-control aircraft if the pilot knows there’s no eject button available…an enforced conservatism.

I don’t think I buy that, but I sort of get the train of thought.

There are a host of possible system failures that would result in them simply being along for the ride, many of them in a profile no more out of norms than having the same emergency during routing pattern work.

MikeD has shared several times the risk to life or taking some of our tactical fighters into an overrun because of the likelihood of it flipping over. The procedure is to get out of the aircraft. The crowd of people who willingly came to see aircraft flown at the edge of a performance envelope are in no unique danger that some random maintenance driver would be in given that kind of event.

This is just our resident idiots and devils advocates suggesting something dumb to be the center of conversation.


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[MikeD]

MikeD has shared several times the risk to life or taking some of our tactical fighters into an overrun because of the likelihood of it flipping over. The procedure is to get out of the aircraft. The crowd of people who willingly came to see aircraft flown at the edge of a performance envelope are in no unique danger that some random maintenance driver would be in given that kind of event.

This is just our resident idiots and devils advocates suggesting something dumb to be the center of conversation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Case in point. The immediate aftermath of A-10A 77-0197, 23rd TASS, took a hit from an SA-14 or -16 SAM and AAA fire while on a FAC mission in Desert Storm 27 Feb 1991. All hydraulics taken out, one engine out, manual reversion…very difficult pitch control and next to no roll control. Attempted a straight -in emergency landing on RW 13 at King Khalid Military City. Touched down hard due to pitch control problems, bounced, rolled over as power was advanced for a go around. Lt Pat Olson fatally injured when canopy was crushed as the fuselage nose impacted inverted on the ground and skidded to a stop.

A semi-controlled ejection at altitude was always an option, but was never taken unfortunately.

 

[Wardogg]

So...remind me how many accidents the Blues and Tbirds have had that have taken out innocents again. Something like 0? Yes, let us take away their ability to eject if they are about to crash just in the off chance they will hit a house. Because if they are, they should die too and more kids should grow up without a parent etc. I'd love to see the math on how many lives have been saved by an airshow eject vs how many ground death incidents MAYBE POSSIBLY could have been avoided had the pilot "tried harder".

That 5-year-old girl's death would have been a whole lot easier to deal with if the Italian pilot died as well.

That is so stupid. You guys are wild for that opinion.

I am not aware of any. As far as I know Capt Kuss' crash in Smyrna was the only one that happened during takeoff. Crashed in a postage stamp size field. Deliberate? Maybe. He didn't attempt to eject until it was too late. Was that to verify it was going to impact where he wanted it to? Maybe. Was it because he was trying to salvage it all the way till the end. More than likely. But in the public's eye hes a hero. News at 11.

I think someone commented on the other thread that him getting out now saves his family the grief of the same tragedy. While true, what do they get in return? A pilot who now has to re-live the incident over and over. Second guessing himself for the rest of his life over the loss of the child on the ground. He rides it in, his family gets to see him as a hero irrespective of his actual behavior in the last few moments. Now they get a pilot with PTSD and more than likely a disorder that hopefully won't tear his family apart when its all said and done. Which is worse? I think about missing an altitude call for 2 days trying figure out what was wrong with me that day. I can even imagine having to live with something like this for the rest of my life. Not that I will EVER get the chance, but if it was me....I'm taking it in. Easy for me to say huh?

Let's not forget, these guys are military. No one signs up to die, but you better be ready to. Why do the tactical guys get the option of abandoning the ride when no one else does? In war time? Absolutley, no questions asked. Even though there are many military aircraft without that option. In an airshow environment, nah, I'm against it.

None of the other performers in the show get the choice. It's their job to fly it to the crash site.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I am not aware of any. As far as I know Capt Kuss' crash in Smyrna was the only one that happened during takeoff.

It wasn’t during takeoff, Kuss botched a Split-S.

 

[trafficinsight]

 

[Wardogg]

It wasn’t during takeoff, Kuss botched a Split-S.

Right after take off.