///AMG
Well-Known Member
hah, was that the delay between ECMO3 and pilot? Or was it more?
2 people safely eject from jet that later crashed during Thunder Over Michigan air show 8/13/2023
- Thread starter fholbert
- Start date
hah, was that the delay between ECMO3 and pilot? Or was it more?
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
That was the command eject delay. IIRC, it was 2.1 sec for all four seats to fire.
As mentioned by Inverted, that slight descending bank they were in; any more bank or any more descent and they would likely be out of the envelope that the seat, seat-man separation,’and full parachute deployment, can successfully occur.
And, as you mention, we don’t know all the facts of the ejection and what specifically prompted it at that moment…..just someone scared over something felt with the plane or said over the ICS? Or someone recognizing a situation going into a bad place, and being proactive; especially if the pilot was possibly tunnel visioned on the emergency? It’s unknown at this time (at least hasn’t been released). Even though there may be question of how the backseater was legally present on a exhibition flight profile; it will be curious to find out what this person’s background is and what their perspective was at the moment the engine problems began occurring. Pilot mentioned an AB issue, which would make me think either a nozzle issue on the aft end or a no-light issue, which will result in possible power loss; but again, that remains to be seen.
With the wings forward, the jet is already at a low energy state, and at a low altitude. That combination along with engine thrust problems, would make a landing pattern likely impossible.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I think there is something to be said for an owner/operator being at the controls, with someone else's pink ass in the seat behind him. Different priorities in that moment.
I've had an AB blowout (immediately following a cat shot, down very low). It was startling to say the least. Fortunately I was over the wide open ocean at the time. And I didn't have a backseater to second guess my situation.
I've had an AB blowout (immediately following a cat shot, down very low). It was startling to say the least. Fortunately I was over the wide open ocean at the time. And I didn't have a backseater to second guess my situation.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Okay, hope I get this right.
The pilot can screw himself if seats are in PILOT mode, as it’s pilot delay plus 1.2 seconds.
There are two modes, PILOT and ECMO.
In PILOT mode, only pilot can initiate command ejection of entire crew, 1.2 seconds for all. In ECMO mode, the pilot or ECMO1 can initiate command ejection, 1.2 seconds for all.
In PILOT mode, ECMO’s can eject individually but the delay is hardwired. ECMO3, no delay. ECMO2, 0.4 delay. ECMO1, 0.8 delay. Pilot, 1.2 delay!!!
Consequently, ECMO mode is the best deal for the pilot as that guarantees worst case of 1.2 seconds. In PILOT mode, the pilot can seal his fate as it’s his delay plus 1.2 seconds.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a simple question. A Prowler pilot can stick with it after everybody has ejected and still gets the 1.2 delay. That’s the killer.
If Pilot or ECMO1 initiates command in ECMO mode, it’s 1.2 seconds for everybody. If Pilot mode, everybody else can eject and you are still stuck with the 1.2 second delay, as the delays are hard-wired for each position.
In the S-3, it’s similar but seats are fired in pairs in command ejection and seats don’t have hard-wired delays when fired individually. 0.52 delay after aft seats fire.
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///AMG
Well-Known Member
I can't even do the math for the Prowler v Hoover accident in the LA, but it sounds like a complete mess (as that was). I had an old skipper, who was a former hoov dude who knew one of the survivors. Sounded like an absolute nightmare
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I think one of the survivors is a JC member and United pilot.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
I knew a guy from another forum that was involved in the warbird scene, specifically the jet scene.
I've known the whole spectrum of people, from the uber-rich, nothing can touch me, to those who are very, very safety conscious and are just living their best life.
This cat was from the later group, and was extraordinarily pragmatic about the whole thing. After spending a metric ass-ton of money buying and refurbing the jet, doing the full training routine with the right people, staying current and tossing all the money you can toss at one of these things, he wound up selling the jet after a very short time. Even though he was fairly experienced as a pilot, including some civilian jet time, he was very upfront about it: "If I kept it, I was going to die in that jet. Not only do you have to be on your game 100% of the time, but so does everyone else who touches it, and you can still get burned. Even if you do everything else right, the elements can conspire against you, and in this thing, there was no measurable margin for error. Those that try to convince themselves otherwise are just whistling in the woods".
He went on to say that these aircraft were designed to be maintained by hordes of people with an unlimited budget and knew exactly what they were doing, and there was still an acceptable rate of loss.
I've known the whole spectrum of people, from the uber-rich, nothing can touch me, to those who are very, very safety conscious and are just living their best life.
This cat was from the later group, and was extraordinarily pragmatic about the whole thing. After spending a metric ass-ton of money buying and refurbing the jet, doing the full training routine with the right people, staying current and tossing all the money you can toss at one of these things, he wound up selling the jet after a very short time. Even though he was fairly experienced as a pilot, including some civilian jet time, he was very upfront about it: "If I kept it, I was going to die in that jet. Not only do you have to be on your game 100% of the time, but so does everyone else who touches it, and you can still get burned. Even if you do everything else right, the elements can conspire against you, and in this thing, there was no measurable margin for error. Those that try to convince themselves otherwise are just whistling in the woods".
He went on to say that these aircraft were designed to be maintained by hordes of people with an unlimited budget and knew exactly what they were doing, and there was still an acceptable rate of loss.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
Yes, this is shaking some memories from my head. I seem to recall it was a total of 2.1 secs from pulling the command eject handle to all four seats getting a parachute. That's not what I said in my post, but that's what I was trying to get at. There's obviously some time from the seat firing to a chute, I just can't recall the timing. 0.9 secs for the pilot seat to fully function?
Skåning
Well-Known Member
What type was it?
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure of the chute times. I’d have to take a look at my dad’s old NATOPS.
I wasn’t a Prowler guy, although I wanted to be. This stuff is stuck in my head from helping my dad study flash cards while I was in junior high school. The timing I was mentioning was seat firing. The hard-wiring of the delays is the oddity. With everybody out of the plane, the pilot still has a 1.2 second delay. In practice, the pilot or ECMO1 is initiating command ejection. With a nugget pilot, they usually chose ECMO mode.
I’m not sure if later Prowler block versions changed seat function. The S-3 had better ejection sequence, firing in pairs. Front seats fired 0.52 after aft seats.
Irish did the Mig Killer Debrief in my Topgun class in 1986. He was calm and professional, and didn’t do any what you described. The only “prop” he used was a piece of aluminum foil and a pencil to demonstrate what shrapnel of a SA2 slicing through aluminum sounded like.
He seemed like a humble, decent bloke, and I respected him a lot more than Randy Cunningham. Their stories of how they got shot down differed considerably.
One thing that stood out, was how lousy the Viet Nam war was, and how it highlighted the courage of the guys fighting it.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
He's certainly all the things you describe, and I'd call my notes on the eccentricities of his more modern brief very minor. Like listening to any of those guys giving the debriefs, it is just cool to get to listen to their stories first hand. It sounds like over the years since your class, his turned into more of a production.
Get-home-itis
Well-Known Member
Slightly related.... in the mid to late 90s I flew with a Captain who had received an invitation from the Martin Baker Corporation for their 50th anniversary. The invitations went out to everyone who had successfully used their ejection seats (I believe they're up to around 8000 or so). The Captain said it was the most amazing party he'd been to. Top shelf open bar and 5 course meal. The only thing that made the story better was when he described how he earned his invitation
Lawman
Well-Known Member
All those guys were in the “F’ing different and damaged” category, and their story telling was largely a method of coping with it.
I remember our newly retired 40 year warrant turned civilian instructor in flight school. Dude had flown Loach recon OH6s in Vietnam and he was telling us some story.
He gets to the part about having his third crash/shoot down of the day and my opposite student just goes, “how did you get shot down 3 times in a row?!?”
Mr Howard: “Well it was Tuesday… *resumes story*”
Like that was just as normal as “I take a shower after a long day in the yard.”
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
No matter if the pilot was a nugget or not, or the setting of the command eject lever wouldn't change his ability to initiate command eject. It only changed ECMO1's ability to do so as well, or not. We normally flew with command eject set to ECMO so either front seater could eject the entire crew. The only time we would change that is if ECMO1 wasn't a qualified crewman. The only time I can recall ever changing to Pilot was when we flew with the CAG. He was a RIO, and had not been through the Prowler RAG, so he always wanted to deselect his ability to initiate command eject. Again, all this is from decades old memories, so I could be recalling things wrong.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I might not have remembered my dad’s comment about nuggets correctly. I can’t imagine a reason for PILOT other than a scenario similar to that you have described.
That said, I wouldn’t worry about CAG’s judgment.
melax
Well-Known Member
Back seat pilot interview, apparently the engine on this aircraft malfunctioned before (see Blancolirio vid. @11:28)
Interview and prelim differs somehow, the hospital interview may have been too soon after the mishap, hence the discrepancies.
These guys were very lucky...
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftcn3NwAZCI&pp=ygUUbWlnIDIzIGVqZWN0aW9uIGtub3c%3D
View: https://youtu.be/KP8M3WRj7F8
Interview and prelim differs somehow, the hospital interview may have been too soon after the mishap, hence the discrepancies.
These guys were very lucky...
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The jet indeed had both an engine issue before this; as well as a canopy piece that came off during, I believe, sun n fun.
It’s already apparent in the video that the jet is low on energy, with the wings forward; that while the engine is running, it doesn’t appear to be anywhere near mil power, and the jet is already low altitude and in a descending bank. There is likely little time until the jet will be outside its safe seat envelope. Even for seats that are rated as “zero-zero”, which these ones wouldn’t be, that only works on the ground anyway.
Am still curious what the FAAs concerns are with this accident, if any. This was as close as it could come to having plowed into an apartment complex without actually doing so. Am curious how this will affect LOAs for jet warbirds.
Very lucky, as there is really no way for the crew to even point the aircraft to avoid places on the ground or have the jet impact somewhere specific post-ejection. That’s due to the fact that as soon as ejection occurs, the loss of weight from the exiting pilots, the seats, and the canopies cause both a weight loss and CG shift that will change the aircraft’s flight path vector anyway. Very lucky.
