1500 hr rule going away??

Rocketman99 said:
Or a perfect example on climbout: hmm, yes, I should definitely pull the nose up to 15 degrees (from about 12) to accelerate to 250 knots. WTF?
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You don't pitch up in a 75/76 you won't be climbing out at 250kts, you'll be doing it at 300kts or better.
 
Cptnchia said:
You don't pitch up in a 75/76 you won't be climbing out at 250kts, you'll be doing it at 300kts or better.
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The 747 in DTW tells tower they're going 265-290 below 10 because of weight every day. Just lie to whatever Tracon you're at. No biggy.

I'm putting out fires all over the place today.
 
z987k said:
Ya, I'm already not a huge fan of our flight director. I can do it more smoothly than it commands, not to mentions it often commands some stupid crap. I can also get the airplane turning like 10 seconds before it decides to command a turn on a heading change. Usually I start what I want the airplane to do and amazingly, the flight director eventually settles into what I have.
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On a PC I witnessed a pilot pitch down at 1000' AGL to accelerate to 200 knots per our profile. I believe it's 10* up, that achieves it quite well. Anyway, the FD started at 15* and was climbing, by this time I think it was around 17* or so pitch up. Our airspeed was around 160-ish and we needed to be at 200.

"GET IN THE FLIGHT DIRECTOR!" the check airman and sim instructor yells

So she yanks back, up to 17*, only to push it forward again when it realizes what we actually want to do.

That check airman and sim instructor is now the lead check airman for my former company.

I feel the training was good at the regional level, however the problem is you get a sort of incestation (that's not a real word, I made it up) with the same people there over the years asking ridiculous questions and concentrating on stupid things that don't matter and getting rid of common sense a lot of times. I felt the same thing about Riddle.

I know every company has its pet peeves of things it wants to focus on, but it seems the bigger ones handle it better.
 
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Autothrust Blue said:
"You are flying along intercepting the localizer, autopilot engaged and LOC-GS modes armed, and it becomes evident that the autopilot's not going to do it. Do you (a) start pressing buttons or (b) fly the airplane?"

(I like my TCS button, or just punching it off outright.)
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It all comes off. I can make the plane do what I want way faster with the yoke than I can punching buttons, especially if I'm trying to catch up from a "WTF is it doing now?" moment.
 
jynxyjoe said:
*This is kind of going with my post above. I'm not trying to be sarcastic at you, but sarcastic at the situation which has a fix and it's a known fix. *

My God, if only there was some guidance out there from Bombardier about using white needles in strong crosswinds to the OM. If only that were... like.. written down somewhere... and companies put it in their books so pilots could use it and enjoy what every Challenger pilot (very unofficial and very unscientific survey) has the 2x a month they fly.

....(Like Mesaba did)
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Oh absolutely. I'm all about using white needles to intercept a LOC unless we're pretty close in and there isn't a crosswind. My complaint was that some guys just don't...and it hurts to watch. And I'll throw in what you said, unless something has changed, intercepting in white needles is technique.
 
Cptnchia said:
You don't pitch up in a 75/76 you won't be climbing out at 250kts, you'll be doing it at 300kts or better.
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What he was referring to is a tendency of the flight director in the CRJ to tell you to pitch up to something ridiculous even though you're maintaining a stable 250kt climb. It usually manifests itself on takeoff when you start accelerating from V2+15 (normal climb out speed) to 250kts when you get the airplane cleaned up. If you pitch down and use the "SYNC" button on the yoke once you achieve 250kts there is no problem. But if the other guy reaches up and spins the speed knob to 250kts, the flight director hangs out a good 5-10 degrees above where you need to be for a good 30 seconds to a minute before it figures things out.
 
z987k said:
Ya, I'm already not a huge fan of our flight director. I can do it more smoothly than it commands, not to mentions it often commands some stupid crap. I can also get the airplane turning like 10 seconds before it decides to command a turn on a heading change. Usually I start what I want the airplane to do and amazingly, the flight director eventually settles into what I have.
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I use it to help maintain a certain state. But when I'm transitioning, I do my own thing and use it only as a guideline. The term I use is "flight suggester"
 
wheelsup said:
On a PC I witnessed a pilot pitch down at 1000' AGL to accelerate to 200 knots per our profile. I believe it's 10* up, that achieves it quite well. Anyway, the FD started at 15* and was climbing, by this time I think it was around 17* or so pitch up. Our airspeed was around 160-ish and we needed to be at 200.

"GET IN THE FLIGHT DIRECTOR!" the check airman and sim instructor yells

So she yanks back, up to 17*, only to push it forward again when it realizes what we actually want to do.

That check airman and sim instructor is now the lead check airman for my former company.

I feel the training was good at the regional level, however the problem is you get a sort of incestation (that's not a real word, I made it up) with the same people there over the years asking ridiculous questions and concentrating on stupid things that don't matter and getting rid of common sense a lot of times. I felt the same thing about Riddle.

I know every company has its pet peeves of things it wants to focus on, but it seems the bigger ones handle it better.
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I see your point, but if you're not using the FD, turn it off. The aircraft I'm currently on will spank you pretty hard if you aren't following the guidance, especially on a V1 cut. I see it all the time in the sim. They are slow to follow the FDs commanding a reduction in pitch because the FD starts off gently suggesting, and then finally respond when the FD starts commanding them to reduce pitch. Next thing you know it's below the horizon, THEN they decide to follow it. That leads to the "don't sink" aural and a repeat.

The FD on the HUD works really well once you learn how to read it. It's not super intuitive at first. Unless it's perfectly centered, it's telling you to do something. People seem to tolerate it being off-center and wait for it to go full scale before reacting.

I flew the CRJ for many years though. I feel your pain, especially with speed mode. If automation is the threat, turn it off and fly. But far too many people just ignore the guidance and leave it up. Turn it off!
 
At my previous gig the airplane they flew right before I got there came with the commandment that THOU SHALT NOT FLY OUTSIDE THE FD. EVER. So when the RJs showed up people were pretty quick to turn off the FD whenever they wanted to hand fly. I found that as the years progressed people did that less and less and it go so that if I turned it off (which I did pretty much whenever I was hand flying) new FOs would get kind of worried. We also didn't have any guidance about taking off without a flight director so I often times would hit the toga switches (to set the runway) which would bring up the FD and then immediately turn it off.

Where I am now, it's very rare that guys turn off the FD but nobody seems to mind if you just ignore it completely. Also, switching from a command bar to pitch/roll lines has been a bit of a challenge for me. I still don't understand why it does the things it does sometimes.
 
Johnny Beau Bekkestad said:
Not that i know the answer to this question, but how many crashes has there been with lowtimers?
Both pilots in Buffalo met ATP mins.
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As was said earlier in thread, they were hired below ATP mins. The captain bought his first job FO job as a low timer, then worked at Colgan for a while as an FO before upgrading (being hired the second time below 1500 hours). Partly his training was to blame, but it's not unreasonable to assume a pilot spending an extra thousand hours doing the basics after training might handle basic flying better. So, if we could go back in time and both pilots had spent more time building time to 1500 hours, instead of already having a year or two at an airline, or having already been through two airlines, they may not have been in the seats for the Buffalo flight. Also would Colgan have even been able to hire with a 1500 hour rule? I was picked up under 1500 hours (though I was getting close) and the class two behind me was all 250 hour pilots. Colgan would have looked a lot different with a 1500 hour rule.

Pinnacle's ill fated flight years ago had a captain that bought his first job airline job as a low timer. Comair's lexington had a pilot or two with the same situation. Some law makers felt the real problem was a pilot getting an airline gig as a low timer, as evidence and expert testimony pointed out, so we have a new rule. That may not be perfect, but they're going to go with the experts for a while and see what happens.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I see your point, but if you're not using the FD, turn it off. The aircraft I'm currently on will spank you pretty hard if you aren't following the guidance, especially on a V1 cut. I see it all the time in the sim. They are slow to follow the FDs commanding a reduction in pitch because the FD starts off gently suggesting, and then finally respond when the FD starts commanding them to reduce pitch. Next thing you know it's below the horizon, THEN they decide to follow it. That leads to the "don't sink" aural and a repeat.

The FD on the HUD works really well once you learn how to read it. It's not super intuitive at first. Unless it's perfectly centered, it's telling you to do something. People seem to tolerate it being off-center and wait for it to go full scale before reacting.

I flew the CRJ for many years though. I feel your pain, especially with speed mode. If automation is the threat, turn it off and fly. But far too many people just ignore the guidance and leave it up. Turn it off!
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Turn it off to turn it on 10 secs later? Sounds like poor technique to me. Going without the FD on a PC is a kiss of death. I'd rather place the airplane where I want it and let the FD catch up. It's a known issue with the automation. Just like spinning the heading and hitting "direct" afterward, and watching it do a wing wag. Solution, don't touch the heading knob, waiting 0.75 secs longer to make the turn isn't going to confuse ATC. I promise.

I'm not sure how your example fits with my story. There is a difference in being "slow to follow" the FD and "knowing where the FD will end up, eventually, and putting the A/C there because you know it's coming".
 
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jynxyjoe said:
As was said earlier in thread, they were hired below ATP mins. The captain bought his first job FO job as a low timer, then worked at Colgan for a while as an FO before upgrading (being hired the second time below 1500 hours). Partly his training was to blame, but it's not unreasonable to assume a pilot spending an extra thousand hours doing the basics after training might handle basic flying better. So, if we could go back in time and both pilots had spent more time building time to 1500 hours, instead of already having a year or two at an airline, or having already been through two airlines, they may not have been in the seats for the Buffalo flight. Also would Colgan have even been able to hire with a 1500 hour rule? I was picked up under 1500 hours (though I was getting close) and the class two behind me was all 250 hour pilots. Colgan would have looked a lot different with a 1500 hour rule.

Pinnacle's ill fated flight years ago had a captain that bought his first job airline job as a low timer. Comair's lexington had a pilot or two with the same situation. Some law makers felt the real problem was a pilot getting an airline gig as a low timer, as evidence and expert testimony pointed out, so we have a new rule. That may not be perfect, but they're going to go with the experts for a while and see what happens.
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I think making people do the full type rather than just an SIC type or PC helps weed people out a lot as well. You should be able to pass a PIC type on a new airplane after 6-8 sims by the time you get to the level of 121 flying.
 
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