1500 ATP Minimums for 121

[Gonzo]

You know what??

No tri hole experience here...although I have jumpseated on the L1011

I am at Ryan out of RFD on the 76..How about yourself?

From March 2009

Hey guys, I was wondering if the folks in the tower allow visitors? I work for American Eagle and often times have 2-3 hour sits between flights, or am busy staring at the walls while on airport reserve. I always wanted to check it out and see how things work up there.

How did you go from Eagle to Ryan in less then four months? Ryan has guys on the street too.:crazy::crazy:

 

[bdhill1979]

How on earth will I qualify now??

Oh wait, I already have the hours.

But how did I get that many hours without a single second of SIC time?

I better find a bridge program.

 

[TheOneMarine]

I read all of the posts and maybe I missed it. How do all the people saying 1500 hours and an ATP (Which I agree with but not the age 28 garbage) feel about those already at the airlines or furloughed? Fortunately, I obtained my CFI before hired at low times and now am flight instructing while furloughed and am near 1500 hours TT but not everyone was that fortunate. Do you all think they should be grandfathered or are you going to burn them in a witch hunt?

 

[Stone Cold]

From March 2009



How did you go from Eagle to Ryan in less then four months? Ryan has guys on the street too.:crazy::crazy:

OOPS!! That there darned internet dun grabbed us another one!!:insane:

I think that's called being owned....opwned...opnd...opwnd...whatever the kids call it nowadays.:bandit:

 

[Screaming_Emu]

From March 2009



How did you go from Eagle to Ryan in less then four months? Ryan has guys on the street too.:crazy::crazy:

Wow...he wasn't lying. He really DOES have a small donger

 

[cmill]

My take is..... the airlines work to achieve the minimum standards set in the regulations.... well so do pilots. If the minimums had been 2500 hours (which they were when I was in college), you can be darn sure I would have found a way to achieve the minimum of 2500 hours.

Like the post that calcapt made recently, and this seems to be epidemic among aviation anyways..... there's not a lot of respect going around when it comes to hot button issues... I get the definite feeling reading replies (esp. with low timers like myself) that I was a screw-up and an idiot for not doing it their way.

In fact, I don't expect the stigma of having been a low timer to ever go away. Just look at the CJC crash.... both pilots had a couple of thousand hours at the time of the accident....

If my name is ever involved in an NTSB report with a successful outcome, there will be little to no mention of how much time I had when I started. If, 6 to 7 years from now I'm a CA at Pinnacle with 7000 hours TT, and some crazy stuff goes down and I'm killed along with x amount of people, the first thing you'll read about is that I got hired with y amount of hours OMG!

I accept taking the lumps with the associated "low timers are morons" and I strive to be as booksmart and proficient in flying my aircraft as possible, but I find it disheartening that I'll pretty much always be "the low timer".

I dont think its really that people think low time pilots are dumb, or not capable. If we were all honest with ourselves, what we're really miffed about is that a lot of these 250 hour guys are taking a shortcut, and really missing a lot of "good" experience, and time really doesn't have a lot to do with it either. What good is 3000TT, if 2500 of it is sitting in the right seat throwing a gear lever? Id rather fly with a guy with half the time whos worked for mom n pop out of KRAP, in bad equip and worse weather, at night by himself. He's seen what bad is, and hes around to tell the tale. As opposed to certain FO's or even CA's, who were looking directly into bad conditions, and had absolutely no clue. It was "no big deal", after all he'd done a winter in the north east. Right.

Raise the FO minimums to 1500 hours, fine. But does it really do any good if its all gear swingin time? Unfortuneatly theres not a way to really quantify "quality" time. Really any PIC time is quality time, maybe they should screw with PIC mins instead of messin with total time. And maybe the reason why "paying your dues" was the accepted standard for so long, is because it worked. You didnt have guys with SJS paying for a ticket in the right seat. If you wanted to get in the right seat, they were damn sure you knew what your were doing in the left. It sounds harsh, but IMHO, i think thats the way it should be.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Experience is what you make of it. As a low time FO going to a regional, I never thought I was Gods gift to aviation, so to speak. So I strive to learn as much on every flight - no matter how short it is.

Sure, it is better if you "bring" experience to the table, but if you understand your limitations you can compensate, can you not.

What of the CFIs that were ONLY CFIing to become regional pilots, and as such treated all their students with the "ok that's +1.5 hours in my logbook" attitude. Ie no regard for the student, just wanted to achieve the magical amount of hours..... I got that feeling from some of my CFIs.

 

[mwflyer]

This will have absolutley no impact on pay. Remember when ASA's mins were 2500? Starting pay was still 16k, and you had to pay for training.

 

[JKJCKSN]

I support this legislation because I think that a pilot at 1500TT will overall have better judgement and experience and will be more of an asset in the cockpit versus a liabilty. I know the training captains at Eagle really noticed a difference in the learning curve of new hires when we lowered the hiring minimum from 1000TT to 400TT. Washout rates doubled in the schoolhouse and IOE went from 20-25 hours to 40-60 hours with comments that the captains were having to spend time teaching the new hires how to fly.
As for the possible pressure on the supply and demand curve to raise pay in 121. We can hope and dream but it is unlikely. Look at part 135... this requires 1200TT and yet it pays horrible bad as well.

You're making an assumption with no basis to support it. Capt Renslow (Colgan 3407) had over 3,500 hrs and an ATP and all his judgement and experience, or lack thereof, put his plane into the ground.

As far as captains "teaching" their F/O's how to fly--I really think that's debatable. F/O's already know "how to fly" and they've proven that time and again to the FAA. You put someone in a jet that's never flown one regardless of flight experience it's bound to pale in comparison to the captain sitting next to him (or her) that's got plenty of time in type. Some captains will complain about that, because they'll fly with and F/O with experience in type, then they'll fly with someone with less experience and state how "they had to teach the poor guy how to..."; yada-yada.

When I taught primary flight instruction, some guys off the street were "naturals", others required a bit more time, they all had ZERO flight time experience--same situation with a transport category aircraft.

 

[n6149s]

I love this thread so far as I see on the news that airfares have falled 9% since last year. Its obvious that you will not get everyone to agree on everything...Training, experience, training, experience, training, experience... Still the same low pay, forever.

 

[JKJCKSN]

Yes, it will help this situation. Here's how. There are too many carriers flying too many planes around. By raising the mins to ATP level for a part 121 job, it will decrease the amount of qualified applicants. Regionals will have to raise their pay and QOL to attract people.

A natural consequence of that will be that many regionals will not be able to remain in business because a) they are not willing to raise their rates and cannot operate, or b) cannot survive with the higher costs. Either way, there will be a decrease in regionals.

With the decrease in regionals, and the increased costs associated with those that can survive, the majors will have to take back a large amount of the farmed out flying because a) there is no one to fly it, or b) the cost for the regional to fly it is so close to the mainline, there is no cost saving in contracting it out.

I see this as a good thing. YMMV.

Well, just because the airline folds, the pilots from that airline will still exist creating more supply than demand, keeping wages low.

 

[derg]

I love this thread so far as I see on the news that airfares have falled 9% since last year. Its obvious that you will not get everyone to agree on everything...Training, experience, training, experience, training, experience... Still the same low pay, forever.

And grammar, but that's a whole 'nother issue! Sorry man! I'm smart-assy tonight.

 

[JKJCKSN]

It depends on what you want out of an FO. If all you want out of an FO is a yes man that agrees with everything the captain says, regardless because they don't have the required experience base to disagree with him or her then a 250hr guy is fine.

Your comment has little to do with flight "experience" and more to do with personality. Some people are more adamant about what they think, others more timid. What happens is that a captain will disregard what the low-time F/O has to say because he doesn't value his input. "What the hell do YOU know, you've only got 'X' hours."

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

You're making an assumption with no basis to support it. Capt Renslow (Colgan 3407) had over 3,500 hrs and an ATP and all his judgement and experience, or lack thereof, put his plane into the ground.

Capt. Renslow was also the product of a pilot mill program.

 

[JKJCKSN]

I think most CRM curriculums would agree that a "yes" man in the right seat is a threat to the safety of the flight.

Any 'tard can make the necessary call outs etc....I want a guy who has had to make a decision or two (ON HIS/HER OWN) next to me.

Being able to make it though new-hire training is independent of one's value in the cockpit. A 250 hr guy can probably make it though new hire training...Does he bring much situational awareness to the cockpit? Nope...But sure he'll probably make the best call out's you've ever seen.

Flying 121 is more about the grind (especially regional flying). Sure some people aren't great sticks but we get over that...Look at today in the Northeast..It's total crap out. Sorry but I'd prefer to have someone with a little more TT next to me than a 250hr out of the box guy...

Well, I guess we should all be flying at the Legacy/Major carriers and working our way DOWN to the regionals. You're going to have to get airline experience somewhere, sometime. Legacy/Major carriers don't do nearly as many takeoffs and landings as regionals do in the course of any given month (except maybe the likes of Southwest), so there's less workload involved and less opportunity to make a critical error. Mainline will usually fly 2-4 legs a day, typically depending on aircraft type, regional guys will fly 2-7 legs a day!

 

[subpilot]

You're making an assumption with no basis to support it. Capt Renslow (Colgan 3407) had over 3,500 hrs and an ATP and all his judgement and experience, or lack thereof, put his plane into the ground.

As far as captains "teaching" their F/O's how to fly--I really think that's debatable. F/O's already know "how to fly" and they've proven that time and again to the FAA. You put someone in a jet that's never flown one regardless of flight experience it's bound to pale in comparison to the captain sitting next to him (or her) that's got plenty of time in type. Some captains will complain about that, because they'll fly with and F/O with experience in type, then they'll fly with someone with less experience and state how "they had to teach the poor guy how to..."; yada-yada.

When I taught primary flight instruction, some guys off the street were "naturals", others required a bit more time, they all had ZERO flight time experience--same situation with a transport category aircraft.

It was a fact that the average IOE time went from 20-25 hours to 40-60 hours all due to having new hires that were in the 400TT level of experience. IOE should be focused on learning the 121 environment, company procedures, and aircraft specific procedures and nuances. I can't speak for exactly what the typical problems were but I do know that the Training Captains were having to teach a lot more than that.

I believe most people have felt the hiring minimums were much too low way before the Colgan crash so this is not an outcry solely due to the Colgan crash but more of an oportunity to change the industry as a whole, while the world is watching, and strive to make positive changes to make the airlines safer for everyone and stop allowing scumbag operations to take advantage of the market and regulations.

If we wanted to make a change solely based on the Colgan facts then I would propose:
1. Revoking all pilot certificates from anyone who graduated from Gulfstream,
2. Prohibit commuting more than 2 hours too work,
3. Make it a crime to fly while sick or fatigued just as flying while intoxicated is now.
4. require all check rides to be conducted by the FSDO and if you fail x amount of times then you have your license revoked.
( I am not endorsing any of these, just sayin...)

 

[N261ND]

what about the delta pilots who flew into a downdraft in dallas...
or the value jet pilots in florida...
or the northwest pilots in detroit who forgot to put the flaps in takeoff position?

news flash: regional pilots are human too.

 

[JKJCKSN]

Capt. Renslow was also the product of a pilot mill program.

So, many pilot these days are. He had enough "airline experience" to know what he was doing. His "pilot mill" days were long behind him at this point. Sorry, I just don't get why that's an issue.

From the research I've done on the Colgan 3407 accident, Capt Renslow was tired, perhaps more than usual, during his flight into Buffalo. He had over 3,500 hrs, an ATP cert (obviously), and less than 200 hrs in type (between 100 and 200 hrs), but he had PIC time in Saabs. He eff'd up and failed to recover appropriately and now we should pass legislation to have an ATP cert to get hired for a Part 121 gig because of it?! Crew rest legislation, maybe, but not necessarily 1,500 ATP mins for a job.

But then I'd have to ask, what of all the accidents at other than regional airlines? Again, I don't believe that by passing this law you're going to solve this problem.

 

[cmill]

what about the delta pilots who flew into a downdraft in dallas...
or the value jet pilots in florida...
or the northwest pilots in detroit who forgot to put the flaps in takeoff position?

news flash: regional pilots are human too.

the delta pilots crashed before they had micro burst sensors at airports

the value jet pilots had no knowledge that the o2 producers were even on there, and that that hadnt been deactivated. Even then there were no fire detectors down there.

I'll give you the NW crash tho, no excuse for that. At least by that point they managed to survive more than 3000 hours...

 

[JKJCKSN]

It was a fact that the average IOE time went from 20-25 hours to 40-60 hours all due to having new hires that were in the 400TT level of experience. IOE should be focused on learning the 121 environment, company procedures, and aircraft specific procedures and nuances. I can't speak for exactly what the typical problems were but I do know that the Training Captains were having to teach a lot more than that.

I agree wholeheartedly. ANY Line Check Airman failing to ensure an F/O (and captain, for that matter) is ready for the job is failing ALL of us!