1500 ATP Minimums for 121

[subpilot]

I agree, you could always do a lesson that takes you 50NM away and then do a touch and go at the outlying airport to make it count. Actually, for ATP you don't even have to land at an airport...just log it as XC and make a note that it was 50NM distance from departure airport.

 

[MikeD]

Less than 50nm = counts towards part 135 cross country time.

More than 50nm = counts towards certificates and ATP.

I didn't log it unless it was more than 50nm.

Was asking since I was wondering which direction you were trying to go.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Go impress someone by wearing your uniform in the mall.

:rotfl:

 

[deadstick]

What you state is true, but I never said PIC under a 135 op. There are F/O's out there working their way up to the left seat in 135 ops, as well. And even then, after 1,200 hrs, they're still able to act as PIC in VFR ops--that's still less than the 1,500 hrs this bill would require.

One thing that deserves mentioning is that many 135 operations are or can be single pilot. So, if the CA has a piece of drift wood in the right seat, no big deal. I haven't seen any CL65 single pitot types. Also, 500 hrs is the requirement for VFR 135. Good luck with the insurance, though.

 

[JKJCKSN]

If a training captain had to go around every time a new hire ON IOE did not do something then these planes would never land. Just kidding with that but I am sure the training captain never felt unsafe because the FO was not making standard callouts. (ie: 1000 feet, approaching minimums, runway in sight, etc). That kind of goes with the job to a certain degree, it just made his jaw drop a bit followed by a head shake.

Yeah, you've got a point there, joking or otherwise. My guess is that many Check Airmen doing IOE checks will have some of the best stories to tell at the bar--and I'm sure they'll need the drinks to wash away the horror.

Also, I think 'kellwolf' has mentioned a number for captain upgrades that I can roll with--3,000 hrs total time. Since we've mostly been talking numbers here, why not mandate 3,000 hrs TT a minimum for captain upgrades while we're at it. I still think 1,500 hrs TT is a bit too much for someone looking to become a new-hire F/O for a Part 121 op, but if that's what it's looking like it'll be, then you might as well create an upgrade buffer for those wanting to move over to the left seat, as well.

 

[-=Deniz=-]

Ok sorry to change the subject but I don't understand how ATP minimums will help at all, Colgan and a couple others already require around 1000TT the ATP is 1500, you will still have low pay and young pilots. I don't see how this will help anything, except making it harder for younger pilots to get a job. I bet if this new decision included getting rid of those current first officers who do not meet ATP times there would be a lot less attention. I don't think this will pass. Pilots talk and thats all they do, when this doesn't pass you'll still be complaining about low pay. I'm sorry but I don't feel the rest of us good pilots should suffer because Colgan provided crappy training kept poor records.

 

[Douglas]

Less than 50nm = counts towards part 135 cross country time.

More than 50nm = counts towards certificates and ATP.

I didn't log it unless it was more than 50nm.

Yes sir Jtrain, that is the "why".
I did log my short hops <50 NM in a separate column, so I could easily show eligibility for 135 mins.

A CFI gets about 4 hours of >50 nm x-c time per private student. That is the bases for my original comment.

 

[C150J]

It's hard to believe, though not impossible, that a Line Check Airmen would not pick-up on the new-hire's poor level of airmanship and still sign him/her off anyway to fly the line. If you've consistently had to teach F/O's how to land an RJ in crosswind conditions, then I'd have to conclude that your Line Check Airmen are lacking the much needed ability to ascertain whether a new-hire F/O should be even flying at your company without receiving more training.

How do you guarantee that an LCA is going to see good crosswind conditions in 25 hours of IOE? In our current state, try convincing the beancounters that you need to take a new-hire on another round of OE. What if your LCAs are substandard and chosen for the wrong reasons (we're lucky at my operation, but the same can't be said for others)?

How about high-profile airports and charted visual approach procedures? In my opinion, a new FO should be on OE when he/she first shoots the Expressway 31 (LGA), River Visual 19 (DCA), and Mount Vernon Visual 1, circle-to 33 (DCA). Again, in our current state, this is not common.

 

[JKJCKSN]

How do you guarantee that an LCA is going to see good crosswind conditions in 25 hours of IOE? In our current state, try convincing the beancounters that you need to take a new-hire on another round of OE. What if your LCAs are substandard and chosen for the wrong reasons (we're lucky at my operation, but the same can't be said for others)?

How about high-profile airports and charted visual approach procedures? In my opinion, a new FO should be on OE when he/she first shoots the Expressway 31 (LGA), River Visual 19 (DCA), and Mount Vernon Visual 1, circle-to 33 (DCA). Again, in our current state, this is not common.

Look, I'm not here to fix all the regional airline's problems--there are many. But we have issues here at the regional airliner's level that aren't that prevalent at major/legacy carrier airlines, or perhaps, even in other facets of aviation.

The bottom line is, we need quality training for new-hires and for captain upgrades to help combat many of the issues we see on the line from day-to-day--it's all about quality training and experience, not just time sitting in an airplane just to rack up total time to qualify for the next rung on the ladder. Low-time pilots (whatever that means to you, because it seems to differ from one standpoint to another) have varying levels of ability, so you can't go "witch-hunting" for every pilot below 1,500 hrs total time just to martyr them. Well, you could, but I doubt if you'd changed anything in the process. But there are many successful "low-time" pilots out there that are doing just fine.

Also, EVERY new "step" in the aviation ladder comes with a learning curve associated with it. Any pilot new to airline ops will have to get up to speed, no matter their total time, just as they did when they started new as a CFI, a Part 135 op, "frieght dawgin-it", etc. With quality training, you can mitigate many of the hiccups you see on the line these days, but you'll never stop them all--they'll always be that pilot that raises the bar on stupidity or mistakes.

 

[ppragman]

Look, I'm not here to fix all the regional airline's problems--there are many. But we have issues here at the regional airliner's level that aren't that prevalent at major/legacy carrier airlines, or perhaps, even in other facets of aviation.

The bottom line is, we need quality training for new-hires and for captain upgrades to help combat many of the issues we see on the line from day-to-day--it's all about quality training and experience, not just time sitting in an airplane just to rack up total time to qualify for the next rung on the ladder. Low-time pilots (whatever that means to you, because it seems to differ from one standpoint to another) have varying levels of ability, so you can't go "witch-hunting" for every pilot below 1,500 hrs total time just to martyr them. Well, you could, but I doubt if you'd changed anything in the process. But there are many successful "low-time" pilots out there that are doing just fine.

Also, EVERY new "step" in the aviation ladder comes with a learning curve associated with it. Any pilot new to airline ops will have to get up to speed, no matter their total time, just as they did when they started new as a CFI, a Part 135 op, "frieght dawgin-it", etc. With quality training, you can mitigate many of the hiccups you see on the line these days, but you'll never stop them all--they'll always be that pilot that raises the bar on stupidity or mistakes.

The more you learn the less you know is a mantra that I find to be more and more apt as I progress in flying. Bottom line is, the current civilian training and education in aviation does not on average produce candidates that are ready or experienced enough at 250hrs to be regional FOs. I went to a two pilot crewed Beech 1900C at ACE when I had 500hrs, and though it worked out great, and I learned a lot, I was not an effective crewmember for the first two months or so. It wasn't that I was behind the airplane, or couldn't fly it (its an easy airplane to fly, though my landings kinda sucked in that airplane for a couple hundred hours), it was that I lacked the requisite experience and judgment to successfully be a co-captain, which, imo, is really what all copilots should be.

I don't particularly think that you have the judgment to hold 75 peoples' lives in your hands at 1000TT, or even 2000TT for that matter, the only reason it works is because most of the time (99.99999999% of the time) everything works, the conditions don't get too dangerous, and the flight is completed as planned. When something is outside of the ordinary, when the proverbial poo hits the fan, then you see the value of good training and experience. Do you think Al Haynes' first job was a RJ gear monkey? No. Do you think the crew of the Gimli Glider got their first jobs out of ATPs? No. They worked up from the bottom, learned the true meaning of aerodynamics, and learned what it takes to make it when things go wrong.

 

[Hernandezcfi]

You know, here is a thinker...Before I was hired at Colgan they were bringing in alot of low time new hires. The last couple of classes including my class back in late '08 had many higher time applicants since no one else was hiring at the time. The average for my class was 1500 hours. Most had Part 135 experience.

I have heard comments from more then a couple of captains about the FO's that came out of the last couple of classes such as "man, they must be doing something right in training these days" or "all you new guys have your act together...kudos to the training dept."

I tell them it's not the training department. All the guys in my class were higher time people with a little seasoning. If your a captain, I know how much you appreciate having a competent person next to you who you can trust when you go in the back to take a leak.

I'm all for raising the mins. When I upgrade, I don't want to be a freakin babysitter with eyes in the back of my head. I don't want to have to start getting nervous if the FO starts changing headings and altitudes while I'm PM and on the other radio getting the weather.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I'm all for raising the mins. When I upgrade, I don't want to be a freakin babysitter with eyes in the back of my head. I don't want to have to start getting nervous if the FO starts changing headings and altitudes while I'm PM and on the other radio getting the weather.

You'll only be as nervous as you make yourself be, not what someone else makes you (unless they're about to kill you!). If you can't handle a guy changing stuff while you're off frequency (read, not paying attention, losing SA), then maybe Captain isn't your gig.

I find the Captains that look up and go "omg what'd you touch" to be funny, just because I reach up to the overhead panel or to my radio panel and move a switch. I shouldn't have to consult with you if we enter icing conditions as defined by the FOM and activate anti-ice.... I'm going to go ahead and do it. I shouldn't have to ask about putting continuous ignition on in moderate or greater blah blah blah.

 

[Hernandezcfi]

You'll only be as nervous as you make yourself be, not what someone else makes you (unless they're about to kill you!). If you can't handle a guy changing stuff while you're off frequency (read, not paying attention, losing SA), then maybe Captain isn't your gig.

I find the Captains that look up and go "omg what'd you touch" to be funny, just because I reach up to the overhead panel or to my radio panel and move a switch. I shouldn't have to consult with you if we enter icing conditions as defined by the FOM and activate anti-ice.... I'm going to go ahead and do it. I shouldn't have to ask about putting continuous ignition on in moderate or greater blah blah blah.

Not true. As an FO, it does not take long to show the guy next to you that you know what you are doing. If you do, they will have confidence in you and won't need to second guess everything you do. I have flown with those "omg what'd you touch" types and after a few legs it goes away. There is no need to get cute about it, if your Captain is still acting that way, then maybe Captain isn't YOUR gig.

My point was not that I can't "handle a guy changing stuff". Show me you know your job and I won't have to worry when I'm not paying attention. Lower time pilots learn by making mistakes. That type of learning should not be going on in a 121 flight deck...IMHO

 

[JKJCKSN]

The more you learn the less you know is a mantra that I find to be more and more apt as I progress in flying. Bottom line is, the current civilian training and education in aviation does not on average produce candidates that are ready or experienced enough at 250hrs to be regional FOs. I went to a two pilot crewed Beech 1900C at ACE when I had 500hrs, and though it worked out great, and I learned a lot, I was not an effective crewmember for the first two months or so. It wasn't that I was behind the airplane, or couldn't fly it (its an easy airplane to fly, though my landings kinda sucked in that airplane for a couple hundred hours), it was that I lacked the requisite experience and judgment to successfully be a co-captain, which, imo, is really what all copilots should be.

I don't particularly think that you have the judgment to hold 75 peoples' lives in your hands at 1000TT, or even 2000TT for that matter, the only reason it works is because most of the time (99.99999999% of the time) everything works, the conditions don't get too dangerous, and the flight is completed as planned. When something is outside of the ordinary, when the proverbial poo hits the fan, then you see the value of good training and experience. Do you think Al Haynes' first job was a RJ gear monkey? No. Do you think the crew of the Gimli Glider got their first jobs out of ATPs? No. They worked up from the bottom, learned the true meaning of aerodynamics, and learned what it takes to make it when things go wrong.

I'll act like a co-captain when they pay me captain pay rates--just kidding! Seriously, I'm only trying to make light of the situation.

But, I'm curious. If money was no object, what kind of training and education do you think would provide the requisite experience necessary to afford the judgement needed to be a "co-captain"--short of oneself being a captain? You did not provide any examples, and I honestly would like to know your thoughts on the issue. I've been harping all along that I believe that part of the solution should be quality training and not necessarily raising hiring minimums to ATP-like standards. So, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

And to answer your questions: no, I don't think Al Haynes' first job was a RJ monkey, as they don't allow monkeys to fly aircraft; and two, I don't think ATP was around to train the 'Gimli Glider' crew, since they've only been in business since 1982 (I believe) and the 'Gimli' event happened in 1983--possible, yes, but I highly doubt it.

Finally, I do believe that all F/O's are, in essence, "co-captans"--whether they're paid like one or not.

 

[-=Deniz=-]

Do you think the crew of the Gimli Glider got their first jobs out of ATPs? No. They worked up from the bottom, learned the true meaning of aerodynamics, and learned what it takes to make it when things go wrong.

The crew of the Gimli glider were punished by the airline. The captain was demoted for 6 months and the first officer was suspended for two weeks. Not everyone flies or acts the same. It pisses me off that people who don't understand what it is like to be a regional pilot are adding their 2 cents. If you're on a cessna, fly your cessna, embraer jet to embraer jet, if you have ever flown on a regional part 121 carrier and are still alive today then there is no problem. Don't bash young pilots, bash pilots that have shown they can't handle their jobs.

Some people get it most don't and that is true wether you are a captain or copilot.

 

[gatorbuc99]

Way late in the debate here, i'm note very good at keeping current. I understand the basis for this legislature is safety-driven but i think it can be a good thing for the industry.

I've learned alot about the indistry from my job in the last to years, talked to alot of 121 guys right now, young and old. I'm just a 100hr vfr guy who's on the fence about doing other things in aviation and keeping flying as a hobby or plowing on in the hopes of doing the 121 thing someday, as flying's my passion. Those 2 things are very different, and that's why i hold the position i do. I'm in favor of this legislature because i believe there are too many jets right now, especially rj's in the system. The entire industry is diluted by too much capacity. We need less flying altogether, which'll hopefully result in better profit margins which'll in turn trickle down into better working conditions for 121 guys, be it 1500hr fo's or 10,000hr grey beards. Even w/ the 65ers's leaving in 2012-2013 i still doubt there'll be a shortage of qualified 121 applicants to fill those positions, plus there's the possibility that there'll be less OF those positions to BE filled as capacity is continually taken out of the system. Even IF there's a shortage, that's a great thing. Simple supply/demand will dictate improved working conditions and better pay when you finally DO make it to the 121 level. Right now there's too many guys willing to work for peanuts and it's killing the career. Don't get me wrong, i'm not sitting here on a high horse and lookin down on a "generation" ('05-'07) pilots, as those are guys i might be flying with someday, if i were in that position, i can't say i would have turned down a 121 gig even at that pay..but that's just my point, we're our own worst enemies to the point were maybe it takes something like this to keep us from shooting ourselves in the foot.

I guess what i'm saying is that i'm fine just keeping my flying as a hobby if things continue the way they are, it's really depressing think about where the industry is and where it looks like it's going. I hope there's more like me because the guys that DO decide to continue on, in the hopes of doing the 121 thing will be better off w/ out low time guys like me, when given the opportunity, choosing to work for nothing just so i can fly a jet and in so doing, shoot myself, those behind, and those in front of me in the foot. If i do decide to continue on towards the 121, then per this legisture, there'll be a smaller amount of well qualified applicants which will hopefully keep the floor high, none of this <$20,000 first year pay b.s. This trickles down to the [career] cfi's who will hopefully also benefit w/ better pay, and trickles up as well in legacy guys not seeing their pay and benefits lower towards regional levels.

 

[Boris Badenov]

The more you learn the less you know is a mantra that I find to be more and more apt as I progress in flying.

You are wise beyond your years and do not suck. Which is more than I can say for this thread.